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Dave_r
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
Messages: 11
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 Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 1:36 pm Sujet du message: Pursuit |
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I have the situation whereby a unit is in contact with another unit to it's front and has a friendly unit in contact with the enemy's flank.
https://imgur.com/du3lEW8
Looking at pg 69 and the "priority" of pursuing. It states:
"Supporting friendly units can also advance the same distance providing that they are aligned corner to corner with the pursuing unit and have the same facing."
Looking at the relevant rules, this means the unit on the flank can't pursue.
Pg60: The unit in melee support is not the main unit and is therefore not in melee so can't pursue as per the above.
Is that correct and is it a change from V3? |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 3:40 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Dave_r a écrit: | I have the situation whereby a unit is in contact with another unit to it's front and has a friendly unit in contact with the enemy's flank.
https://imgur.com/du3lEW8
Looking at pg 69 and the "priority" of pursuing. It states:
"Supporting friendly units can also advance the same distance providing that they are aligned corner to corner with the pursuing unit and have the same facing."
Looking at the relevant rules, this means the unit on the flank can't pursue.
Pg60: The unit in melee support is not the main unit and is therefore not in melee so can't pursue as per the above.
Is that correct and is it a change from V3? |
The order of bullets is not an “in priority†list. It’s just a list.Â
The bullet you are citing allows units in simple support to also move up with a unit they have supported in Melee.
The subsequent bullet is I believe the one that covers what happens in the situations when multiple units are in Melee and Melee Support with the same enemy.Â
It probably could be somewhat clearer to be fair, but the reference to “several units in Melee with the same enemy...†is the key line here, as this phrase only really makes sense if it’s read as a plain English paraphrasing of “units in Melee + Melee supportâ€.Â
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Dave_r
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
Messages: 11
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| Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 6:17 pm Sujet du message: |
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Right, here is my thinking....
Page 60 defines the terms.
A unit is in melee if it is the main unit in the combat - if there are multiple units in contact with the enemy, the main unit is the one that has the enemy's front edge in contact with it.
Other units in contact with the same enemy count as simple support (i.e. where they are in edge to edge or corner to corner contact) or Melee Support (where their front edge is in contact with the enemy's flank).
Page 69 then defines who can pursue:
It states that "Supporting Friendly units can also advance the same distance providing that they are aligned corner to corner with the pursuing unit and have the same facing".
Because the supporting unit does not have the same facing they cannot pursue. The supporting unit is not in melee as defined on page 60. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1669
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| Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 9:09 pm Sujet du message: |
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| See what Tim wrote. |
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Dave_r
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
Messages: 11
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| Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 9:12 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Let us see what the official guidance is |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 9:18 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Dave_r a écrit: | Right, here is my thinking....
Page 60 defines the terms.
A unit is in melee if it is the main unit in the combat - if there are multiple units in contact with the enemy, the main unit is the one that has the enemy's front edge in contact with it.
Other units in contact with the same enemy count as simple support (i.e. where they are in edge to edge or corner to corner contact) or Melee Support (where their front edge is in contact with the enemy's flank).
Page 69 then defines who can pursue:
It states that "Supporting Friendly units can also advance the same distance providing that they are aligned corner to corner with the pursuing unit and have the same facing".
Because the supporting unit does not have the same facing they cannot pursue. The supporting unit is not in melee as defined on page 60. |
I can see how you come to that train of thought - however that's not the way it's historically ever been played, and there have been clarifications already on this forum from the DT about multiple pursuits in relation to the priority for Impetuous troops too, so I think there is definately something that's eluded us here.
A consequence of your way of reading this would also be that the whole of the next bullet point ("If several units are in melee with the same enemy...") would be describing a situation which does not and cannot exist, as in a literal reading of the rules it is only ever possible for one unit to be the main unit "in melee" with an enemy.
So, based on previous experience and common sense, this looks like a situation where either a word or two in this paragraph hasn't quite been translated properly from the original French, and/or the word "simple" could also have been added to the previous paragraph to clarify that that paragraph applied to Simple Support. That explanation seems far more likely than a big change from v3 to make flank attacks less deadly, and also a whole bullet point being included to cover what happens in a situation which is impossible.
My guess is it's a consequence of the introduction of the specific term and concept "melee support" (which is new in v4 and is sort of a hybrid between simple support and melee) which has tripped up the translators, as general terms like "in melee" now have more specific meanings relating to rules convepts in v4 that they may not have had in v3. This pair of paragraphs seem to have slipped through the net.
Again, based on previous experience, we should now wait for a member of the DT to arrive and tell us the translation is a little off, or (as often happens) to point us to another part of the rules that we've missed that clarifies this.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 9:33 pm Sujet du message: |
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I think this is the image
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Dave_r
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
Messages: 11
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| Posté le: Jeu Juin 10, 2021 11:25 pm Sujet du message: |
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| I think that sums it up rather well Tim. And yes, that is the picture :) |
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vexillia
Centurion
Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
Messages: 408
Localisation: Nantwich, UK
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| Posté le: Ven Juin 11, 2021 8:28 am Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: | | so I think there is definately something that's eluded us here. |
Line of Duty is so last month. 
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Zoltan
Légat
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 500
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posté le: Ven Juin 11, 2021 10:16 am Sujet du message: |
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| vexillia a écrit: | | madaxeman a écrit: | | so I think there is definately something that's eluded us here. |
Line of Duty is so last month. |
Jesus, Mary and Joseph and the wee donkey!  |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 758
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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| Posté le: Ven Juin 11, 2021 8:25 pm Sujet du message: |
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Following on from the discussion on Facebook I think there's been an error in the translation of the Pursuit rule.
The 7th bullet point should maybe read:
| Citation: | If several units are in melee or in melee support with the same enemy...
[edited after realising that simple support units are also "in combat"] |
My reasoning for this is that in v3 page 80 the paragraph "Melee" defined being "in melee" as being either "in contact with an enemy's front edge" (not just corner to corner) or "in contact with at least part of [its] own front edge (not just corner to corner) against the flank or rear of the enemy."
That was then followed by the definition paragraph "Main unit" which set out what happened if several units were in contact with a singe enemy unit.
HOWEVER, in v4 the order of these paragraphs is reversed with "Main unit" setting out what happens if several units are in combat with a single enemy unit
This is followed by the Melee paragraph with the definition that "a unit is in melee when it is the main unit in a combat"
Thus the v3 concept of being "in melee" has now been split into two concepts "in melee" (the main unit in a combat) and "in combat" (the main unit in a combat and the units in melee support in a combat)
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Dernière édition par daveallen le Dim Juin 13, 2021 11:19 am; édité 1 fois |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Ven Juin 11, 2021 10:40 pm Sujet du message: |
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I think there’s an echo in here …Â
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1236
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 12:02 am Sujet du message: |
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| Dave_r a écrit: | I have the situation whereby a unit is in contact with another unit to it's front and has a friendly unit in contact with the enemy's flank.
https://imgur.com/du3lEW8
Looking at pg 69 and the "priority" of pursuing. It states:
"Supporting friendly units can also advance the same distance providing that they are aligned corner to corner with the pursuing unit and have the same facing."
Looking at the relevant rules, this means the unit on the flank can't pursue.
Pg60: The unit in melee support is not the main unit and is therefore not in melee so can't pursue as per the above.
Is that correct and is it a change from V3? |
Your reasoning is not correct, and the intention has not changed from V3.
To amplify what Tim and Dave have said, this is actually a problem that resulted from converting from V3 to V4. The definitions of "melee" in p60 were amended but their subsequent use in Pursuit p68
has remained unchanged. |
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Dave_r
Javelinier
Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
Messages: 11
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| Posté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 10:40 am Sujet du message: |
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[quote="Ramses II"]Your reasoning is not correct, and the intention has not changed from V3.
To amplify what Tim and Dave have said, this is actually a problem that resulted from converting from V3 to V4. The definitions of "melee" in p60 were amended but their subsequent use in Pursuit p68
has remained unchanged.[/quote]
So my reasoning is correct, but the rules need updating :) |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1236
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Sam Juin 12, 2021 11:06 am Sujet du message: |
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| El Kreator is aware |
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