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group charges
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 15, 2021 3:26 am    Sujet du message: group charges Répondre en citant
Retracted because I got too much incorrect.

Dernière édition par Za Otlichiye le Sam Oct 16, 2021 1:59 pm; édité 1 fois
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 15, 2021 4:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Za Otlichiye a écrit:
I realize most group charges will be much simpler affairs than what I outline here.
Is the following correct about group charges:

Groups start with at least one unit is charge distance of an enemy unit. Other units might be in charge range and might be measuring to the same enemy unit, which they will not be able to contact.

The group will then either slide sideways up to 1UD; or 1/2 turn, 1/4 turn, or stand, and then wheel 0 to 90 degrees. From there it will move straight forward, checking as it begins to enter ZoC's until the first unit strikes the enemy. At this point, the defender must decide which front line units which have been, or would be contacted if the chargers moved their full distance. If all enemy evade, then the charge distance die is rolled and the charge either has ended[Note 0], will end shortly, or may continue further, setting up a second contact and evade decision. Added charge distance might also place additional attacking units in charge distance when they did not start out that way.

At this point, if there is contact, then those units in contact, as well as those units originally or addionally in charge distance of the enemy, may "slide and rotate" into conformance.[Note 1] Units which are not required to continue the charge, and which cannot melee or support, may displace 1UD to remain aligned in the group, but may not enter melee or support in doing so.[Note 2]

Units may (or if Impetuous, in many circumstances, must) continue their charge straight ahead.[Note 3]

Note 0. Since the group may have already moved further than max-1, I assume the group is not moved back, but simply stops.

Note 1. Because the conformance "slide and rotate" applied to a rank of 6 units at an angle can allow the units on the end to swing through enormous distances, it is important to restrict it to only those who were in charge distance at the begining, but an extended charge can then put other units in charge distance and it would make no sense to disallow them contact.

Note 2. From the Conformance rules. There does not appear to be any restriction on how the 1UD displacement takes place, so the group could contract or expand arbitrarilly as well.

Note 3. Presumably, non-Impetuous units can stop at any time, but it can also be read that
they either remain where they are or move full distance.


Your question would be clearer if there were one specific example you were asking about rather than trying to encompass all possibilities into one multipart question.

I think your Note 0 is wrong. If the enemy evades and you roll 1-2 you might not even reach their original position.

Regarding your Note 3: see point 6 on p43. If all enemy charged evade then the chargers can voluntarily move short (unless they are impetuous) but must move at least 1(foot) or 2 (mounted) UDs if possible.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 15, 2021 5:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Should I stay or should I go?

The initial target of the charge needs to decide whether it will stand and receive the charge or evade once the charge has been declared. Charge declaration includes stating if there will be a slide or wheel/turn (direction of the charge).

If the initial target evades, subsequent targets may emerge due to variable move dicing.

Only 1 unit of the charging group needs to measure to (and be within charge reach of) the initial target. There is no need to measure from every charging unit in a group to the initial target. All the other units in a group can be outside their charge range to the initial target unit - you just need one unit in the group to be within charge range.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 15, 2021 5:47 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for the timing of the evade decision. I missed that.

Page 42 Additional points - However only those units of the group that start within charge range will be able to conform with the enemy.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 15, 2021 10:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Za Otlichiye a écrit:
Thanks for the timing of the evade decision. I missed that.

Page 42 Additional points - However only those units of the group that start within charge range will be able to conform with the enemy.
Charges and the subsequent conformation are quite complicated. As others note, you need to follow the Charge Procedure (9 steps pp43, 44) where only a single unit of a group need be in range, and the target may evade. Those charging units that will not end up in contact may conform up to 1UD (p50, definition last bullet) to provide melee support by sliding and then wheeling - ie they may not exceed their movement distance.

Those units that are not in a position to support may continue up to the maximum distance (mandated if impetuous)
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Sam Oct 16, 2021 2:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you Pharaoh.

My hang up has been the examples on page 50, where the group as a whole swings into conformance. I realize that with a broad group at a large angle, the far unit could travel much further than its movement allowance. So I am trying to figure out what determines which units may conform. Rereading the Charge Range section I see than it is based not only on the distance from the enemy, but also on the individual unit's ability to contact the enemy, which makes sense.

Actually, rereading the ZoC rules I now realize that it's very difficult to make a legal, high angle, wide charge. You hit ZoCs that stop you because you would not contact the unit projecting the ZoC. This puts to rest all my thought experiments on Charge anomalies. You really have to line up first to avoid a nasty surprise.

***

In other news, I was stunned to realize the Special case on page 37 leaves a unit in incomplete conformation by contacting the front edge of the enemy with only the front corner of the unit, yet allow Melee. From the surfeit of other diagrams, I had thought incomplete conformation was always partial edge to edge.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 17, 2021 1:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don’t have the rules to hand just now, but I do understand your point. I think that ZoCs cease to exist once a unit has been contacted (but may have mis-remembered.  
So I think you refer to the following type of situation 

 . . . . . . ABCDE

1
2
3
4
5

Group 1-5 charges group A-E, making an initial wheel, but striking at an angle greater than 80 degrees (for example). What happens ??

Basically unit 1 hits A and stops, unit 2 (with the rest of the group) continues and hit C. Unit 3 (and the remainder) can continue, but would not hit anything. 

So unit 1 then conforms on A, unit 2 has crossed the ZoC of 2 so slides and wheels into contact. Unit 3 is by definition within 1UD and the ZoC of C, so conforms. Units 4 & 5 can stop or continue etc. 

Note; The higher the angle of contact, the fewer the number of units that can legally conform this way 
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 17, 2021 3:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
I don’t have the rules to hand just now, but I do understand your point. I think that ZoCs cease to exist once a unit has been contacted (but may have mis-remembered.  
So I think you refer to the following type of situation 

 . . . . . . ABCDE

1
2
3
4
5

Group 1-5 charges group A-E, making an initial wheel, but striking at an angle greater than 80 degrees (for example). What happens ??

Basically unit 1 hits A and stops, unit 2 (with the rest of the group) continues and hit C. Unit 3 (and the remainder) can continue, but would not hit anything. 

So unit 1 then conforms on A, unit 2 has crossed the ZoC of 2 so slides and wheels into contact. Unit 3 is by definition within 1UD and the ZoC of C, so conforms. Units 4 & 5 can stop or continue etc. 

Note; The higher the angle of contact, the fewer the number of units that can legally conform this way 


In your example, can 3 conform if it starts outside of charge reach from 3 (that is the straight line distance between its front left corner and the nearest point on 3 is greater than its movement allowance)?
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 17, 2021 3:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes, the contact points accordion out, then you also have the issue that 2 cannot move through B's ZoC on its way to C.

After the group as a whole is moved to first contact, I guess you can "continue the charge" of each unit in turn. Contact put the enemy into Melee, so "turns off" the ZoC, but as soon as you "skip past" one, you are running into its ZoC and must stop.

***

Kevin, I think that's prohibited on page 42 Additional Points -However, only those units of the group that start within charge range wll be able to conform with the enemy.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 17, 2021 4:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yup, essentially the charging group splits up as each successive unit contacts and stops on contact with the enemy / ZoC, while the group continues movement up to the maximum movement range. Conformation then restores some of the grouping but may still result in the group splitting up depending on circumstances

The charging group may not exceed it's maximum movement distance, hence the conformation manoeuvres by sliding and then wheeling into contact but [b]NOT[/*] by advancing. This does mean that the final unit to get into contact is the one that moves into melee support (which may end up wheeling forwards past its maximum range but not excessively so - so this discrepancy is ignored).
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 18, 2021 2:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK, hate to do this. Obviously people have been playing the game and working this out intuitively without a problem, but...

The Conformation After Charge example on page 50 is an illegal charge according to the rules as written.
Before A1 makes contact, A3 nicks the corner of B1's ZoC. Since B2 is still more than 1UD away, and B1 is the closest enemy unit, it is the most threatening enemy. A3 must charge or close on B1, otherwise it cannot enter B1's ZoC. ZoC restrictions must be observed during a charge.

I think this can be solved by adding an Exception to the ZoC rules: "During a group charge, enemy ZoC's may be ignored if the the enemy unit will be in melee (contacted) at the completion of the charge."
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 18, 2021 6:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That ‘rule’ already exists - p35 bullet #5 - So you can rest easy. 

This is one of those situations where you have to play  to ‘the spirit of the rules’  . . . 
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 19, 2021 1:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Page 38 bullet 5 Very Happy I was really worried there for a while...

True. You probably don't need my proposed rule. But you do need to change the process a bit. On a group charge, you need to move each unit one at a time to contact. Do it in the right order, you "turn off" the ZoC's, allowing the next unit to go contact.

In the example on page 50, A1 and A2 would move to contact, negating B1's ZoC. Then A3 could move to contact agaist B2 without worrying about B1's ZoC Then they would simultaneously conform. They just wouldn't do it as a 3 unit rank.

***

I also think this would help the "the unit that first entered the the enemy's ZoC conforms to the this enemy" rule (pg 50 top of second column). The issue here is that if A1-A2-A3 are displaced a bit to the right, then A1 enters B1's ZoC first. This means A1 and A3 conform to B1 and B2, while A2 must group behind them.

If instead you move unit by unit, you can move A2 into contact first. A1 cannot charge B1's front (pg 44, Prohibited charges 1st bullet) but as it is hitting the corner, it can conform into support. So you are back to the same outcome, without the niggling worry about who is getting in the ZoC first.

Really need to figure out how to add SVG diagrams to this forum....
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 19, 2021 11:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This is all covered as well under Continuing a charge, which effectively works as you describe (see my earlier post) Very Happy

The diagrams in the rules ignore these minutiae both because they are assumed to be understood, to save print and because this is a game rather than a detailed simulation.  
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