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Jurchen-Jin - List 227
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 13, 2021 7:30 pm    Sujet du message: Jurchen-Jin - List 227 Répondre en citant
The list allows 0-4 “Khitan horsemen *”. (NB: they are not described as allies.) The notes say, “Only one commander can be included in a Khitan unit. He must command all and only Khitan troops” There is also an allowance for 0-8 “Steppe mercenaries”.

Some questions:

1. If you take any of the Khitan horsemen do you have to take a Khitan commander to lead them and only them, or does the note only refer to what you must do if you take a Khitan commander (such as by including a general in one of the Khitan units)?

2. (If the answer to the above is “yes”) If one takes some Khitan horsemen and thus also a Khitan commander, does he have to be included one of the 0-4 Khitan horsemen units? (That is dies the “he” in the notes refer to any commander of Khitan troops (whether included or not) or just to an included Khitan commander?

3. Can some or all of the “Steppe mercenaries” be treated as Khitan troops? (Historically, the Khitans were one of the ethnic groups living on the Mongolian steppe in the 12th century and they did serve in Jin armies.) Or does the list consider them to be distinct non-overlapping groups?
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 13, 2021 9:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Interesting and very valid catch. We will get some clarification, so for now my comments are how I would response as list-checker inquiry.

I would point out this wording is different from Gaesati in list 89. I am not sure that difference is instructive.

3 No. Khitian and Steppe are different. This is the easiest in how this is written..

I would view this as "if, then" and "if not"

So if you do not include a commander in a Khitian unit then they can be distributed however and the bullet restrictions do not apply.

If you do include a command in a Khitian unit then that Corps can only contain the 0-4 Khitians and nothing else and they cannot be in any other corps.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 14, 2021 12:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Interesting and very valid catch. We will get some clarification, so for now my comments are how I would response as list-checker inquiry.

I would point out this wording is different from Gaesati in list 89. I am not sure that difference is instructive.

3 No. Khitian and Steppe are different. This is the easiest in how this is written..

I would view this as "if, then" and "if not"

So if you do not include a commander in a Khitian unit then they can be distributed however and the bullet restrictions do not apply.

If you do include a command in a Khitian unit then that Corps can only contain the 0-4 Khitians and nothing else and they cannot be in any other corps.


Thanks, Dan. That’s more or less how I read it, but wanted to check and make sure I wasn’t too motivated by what I wanted to see.
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 14, 2021 2:58 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dan's interpretation seems to be the "as written" and it is also how I would rule. I suspect it is not what is intended.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 14, 2021 7:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
Dan's interpretation seems to be the "as written" and it is also how I would rule. I suspect it is not what is intended.


What do you think was intended?
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 14, 2021 10:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
ethan a écrit:
Dan's interpretation seems to be the "as written" and it is also how I would rule. I suspect it is not what is intended.


What do you think was intended?


All such troops must be in one command. One Khitan general can be included, if so it must be in the command with all teh Khitans.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 15, 2021 6:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:


All such troops must be in one command. One Khitan general can be included, if so it must be in the command with all teh Khitans.



Which is essentially what was written for the Gaesati.
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Sam Oct 16, 2021 2:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
ethan a écrit:


All such troops must be in one command. One Khitan general can be included, if so it must be in the command with all teh Khitans.



Which is essentially what was written for the Gaesati.


Right. I think there may be one or two others like that as well.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 20, 2021 4:33 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Some Notes about the Jurchen:

The Khitan Liao destroyed the Bohai/ Balhae state in Manchuria or northern Korea in 926 AD. (This state had been a fusion of Gogyreo nobles from Korea and Moho and other Tangusic elements from Manchuria and points north.) However the Khitans did not directly rule Manchuria after this but rather relied on local chieftains and clans to keep order here and keep the all important Falcon-Road open so their emperors could get falcons as tribute and go fishing in the icy rivers. (It’s good to be the king.) By about 960-985 AD these local Jurchen clans were major exporters of horses (and other local products like fur) to Song China and even the Khitans with their 50 million horses. The Jurchen were known for good horsemanship by this time. These Jurchen pretty lords fought with and against the Khitans and the Goryeo Koreans, and each other. In the early 11th century they raided Japan, killing a governor and hundreds of his men and carrying off well over a thousand slaves.

1. So given this the Jurchen list could probably start around 960-985 AD, call it 975 AD.

2. This whole area is very mountainous so Mountains should probably be a terrain option.

3. The Khitan Liao should get Jurchen allies from 926-1113 AD.

At the battle of Abuwan between the Anchuhu Jurchens led by Wanyan Holibu against other Anchuhu Jurchens in the early 1080s, Holibu’s main body were on foot with long spears (長槍). At least some wore armor as they are discussed making and stockpiling huge amounts of iron armor before this battle and their leader (Holibu) is said in one of two sources on the battle to have stripped off his armor prior to charging at the head of his men. Although the Jurchen kept slaves, I can see no records of that the Jurchen armed their slaves and used them as infantry.

In fact it seems likely that these long spearmen were dismounted cavalry. Prior to this battle Holibu had chased off another enemy force and then quickly marched back to help his subordinate who had been beaten by a second enemy army, something quite typical for a mounted force to do. Further, in the future when the Jurchen fought the Northern and Southern Song in China proper, their success on the battlefields of Northern China was attributed by the Song to the Jurchen being an almost entirely cavalry force, so it is possible or even likely these Jurchen long spearmen were dismounted lance armed cavalry.

This seems to leave open a couple of possibilities: first, there was a body of armored spear men available to the Jurchen leaders in Manchuria. MI Sp seems most appropriate given the terrain of the area, perhaps with the option to be armored. The second option is to allow the Jurchen lancers would form up as dismounted as spearmen on occasion.

The battle was decided when his subordinate, who had been waiting out of sight with his massed horse archers for the signal (waving banners and beating drums) came charging into the rear of Holibu’s opponents once these opponents were frontally engaged with his spearman, deciding the battle. In a prior battle, Holibu’s brother was described as trying to use a feigned flight to lure his opponent out of a defensive position (a large fortified village) before he would turn about and attack them, but he wasn’t a great military leader and his men just kept running rather than turning around - it was to rescue this force that Holibu had marched back.

In addition to the Guaizima (or Crippled Horse) dismounting for battle, the The Iron Pagoda cataphracts also did so. The latter were recorded as frequently fighting dismounted in battle. One Song Chronicler noted, after describing how the Iron Pagodas fought mounted in deep wedges that “if situation demanded, they would dismount and fight as heavy infantry.” One example of them dismounting was the Battle of Jinzhen Pass in the 1130s. They were armed with lances, bows and two handed swords.

4. Either allow the Jurchen some (0-4 or maybe 6) MI Sp Ordinary* with the option to be armored prior to 1127 AD and/or allow the Guizima be bought as dismounted HI supported Sp.

From 1104-1105 and 1106-1109 AD the Jurchen fought two successful wars against the Goreyo Koreans seizing Helan Dan, a land in northwest Korea (modern North Korea) along the Goreyo borders inhabited by Jurchens.

After seizing Keifang and the rest of northern China and driving the Song south of the Yellow River the Jurchen set up a couple of Chinese satellite states to rule the Han peoples they had conquered from 1127-1137. The first, Chu, failed when the king of Chu defected to the Song. The second was abolished in 1137 because the king of Da Qi was felt to be ineffective at fighting the Song; some Jurchen leaders spthought he was so ineffective that he had to be in league with the Song.
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