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Zhou and Spring and Autumn Chinese - List 37
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 4:28 am    Sujet du message: Zhou and Spring and Autumn Chinese - List 37 Répondre en citant
The Tribal auxiliaries (MI Sword Impetuous) are listed as 7 points. They should be 6 points in V4. 
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mar Nov 16, 2021 9:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This list allows Duke Wen of Jin (aka Chong’er, Wen was his posthumous name) to be a Strategist in 632 BC. Presumably this is to reflect the great victory of Jin and its allies over Chu and its allies at the famous Battle of Chengpu, perhaps the greatest battle of the Spring and Autumn era. However, Duke Wen was not present at this battle; he left command of his armies up to a group of six very able commanders.

Instead of Duke Wen being the Strategist, I would say that the Jin Strategist should be Hu Yan. As much as anyone he was responsible for the Jin victory at Chengpu, and several other battles. He also wrote one of the two leading books on military strategy, and is considered the leading exponent of deception in Chinese warfare. The Confucians tended to promote Sunzi/Sun Tzu as the leading theoretician of war while the Legalists admired Hu Yan and the use of deception to win battles and wars. I would suggest the dates for him should be from 636 BC (when he accompanied Duke Wen during the latter’s return from his 19 year exile to assume power in Jin) or 635 BC (when his army restored the King Zheng of Zhou) until either 630 BC (at the Diquan Summit restoring peace and setting up the Jin Hegemony) or 629 BC (when Hu Yan died).

In contrast to both Duke Wen or Sunzi, Hu Yan actually led substantial armies in battle (including the Upper Army in the 632 BC campaign) and was invariably successful. The historical facts surrounding of Sunzi are very murky; he may have been a general and he may have fought at the Battle of Boju (506 BC), but this is not at all certain. Sunzi, as a historical figure from the Spring and Autumn era, may or may not have written the Art of War and if so, some or most of it might have been originally composed during the Spring and Autumn period - the form of the book as we know it dates from the Han Dynasty and several of the technologies it references are from that era or shortly before it and there is no solid evidence of its prior existence. In contrast Hu Yan is well attested as a historical general from the late 7th c BC and who fought in specific campaigns and battles and whose theories and practices of deception in war commented on by various philosophers during the Warring States era.

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Another issue with the list is the classification of the chariots. The heavy chariots of the Spring and Autumn period are all list as heavy chariots impetuous (ordinary or elite). I don’t think this is right. Looking at the Jin and allied forces at Chengpu alone we see fierce charges against selected targets ordered by senior commanders such as Xu Chen’s left wing of chariots armored in tiger skins who quickly demolished the Chu right or the Jin nobles who crushed the Chu left by falling on their inner flank later in the battle. However this latter move was only set up by feigned flights by the Jin right, circling maneuvers by other chariots redeploying from the victorious right, and the encirclement of enemy formations by chariots maneuvering after they defeated previous enemy formations. Much of this maneuvering was covered by having detachments of chariots cross the army dragging branches to raise dust to obscure the redeployment of chariots from one wing to the other. These were not Prince Rupert’s cavalry charging off the field of battle in pursuit of a defeated enemy wing, nor did they attack without orders.

Even the Chu forces seemed quite disciplined. After their weak right was broken Ziyi, the Chancellor of Chu and head of the army, was able to restrain and redeploy elements of his center to counter the envelopment by the victorious Jin left while fighting the Jin center to their front. Even the left wing, whose defeat is ascribed to attacking rashly, are described as attacking only because Ziyi ordered them to attack when he thought the Jin right was broken, not because the Chu and allied charioteers or infantry decided to plunge ahead without orders. After the defeat of both of his wings, Ziyi was able to successful pull off an orderly withdrawal of the Chu center.

While the Jin and allied chariots used feigned flights, redeployments, encirclements and the like, these were four horse chariots who could charge hard and decide battles with their charge, which is not really consistent with light chariots.

Looking at how the chariots behaved they should however have the option to be Heavy Chariot Impact (or maybe all/none Impact or Impetuous).

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Finally, the terrain ought to be Plains, Mountains (or maybe Plains, Mountains, Forests) for the northern states (Qin, Jin, Yan, Qi and most of the minor states) only the states south of the Huai river (Chu and Wu) should be Plains, Forest. At the very least Qin and Jin should be Plains, Mountains.
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