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Northern Dynasty Chinese - #119
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 19, 2021 11:35 am    Sujet du message: Northern Dynasty Chinese - #119 Répondre en citant
Given it has a solid force of heavy and medium foot with lots of options, and plenty of heavy impact cav and/or cataphracts, plus horse archers, would you:

a) take the heavy impact cav but not the cataphracts;
b) take the cataphracts but not the heavy impact cav; or
c) take some of both

And why?

Personally, I think there's room for both. I'm planning a hammer wing of 4 Elite cataphracts, 3 Hvy Impact Cav, & 2 LH, bow.

Cheers
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 24, 2021 12:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK, here's a list then...

Northern Dynasty Chinese 200 AP

Command 1
1 Competent Commander (included) 0
4 Elite Cataphracts @13 52
3 Heavy cavalry impact @10 30
2 Light cavalry bow @6 12
94 AP
Command 2
1 Competent Commander 3
3 Heavy spearmen mediocre + support @7 21
2 Bowmen @7 14
2 Bowmen mediocre @5 10
48 AP
Command 3
1 Competent Ally-General (included) -3
6 Light cavalry bow @6 36
2 Elite Heavy cavalry bow @13 26
59 AP

201 AP

Command 2 stays back and holds the centre, while command 1 attacks. Command 3 dances and shoots.

Any thoughts?
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babyshark
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MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 24, 2021 5:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If the list costs 201 AP then you have a problem from the jump.

Beyond that, the first thing that comes to mind is that I think you may want to consider the command values of your generals. The foot corps probably has more command than it needs, while the LH corps probably has less. Once all those LH and shooty cav start evading you will have multiple groups, each needing CP. Maybe more important, the command range of the competent included general will be tested quite early on when the LH evade and the general doesn't (or something like that).

Marc
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Nov 25, 2021 1:59 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Marc.

OK, this addresses some of your concerns (but not the last one)...

Command 1
1 Competent Commander (included) 0
4 Elite Cataphracts @13 52
3 Heavy cavalry impact @10 30
2 Light cavalry bow @6 12
94 AP
Command 2
1 Ordinary Commander 0
3 Heavy spearmen mediocre + support @7 21
2 Bowmen @7 14
2 Bowmen mediocre @5 10
45 AP
Command 3
1 Brilliant Ally-General (included) 0
6 Light cavalry bow @6 36
1 Elite Heavy cavalry bow @13 13
1 Heavy cavalry bow @11 11
60 AP

199 AP

If I make the elite heavy cavalry bow in command 3 just normal heavy cavalry bow, I have enough points (3) to upgrade the commander of command 1 to Brilliant.
Like this:

Command 1
1 Brilliant Commander (included) 3
4 Elite Cataphracts @13 52
3 Heavy cavalry impact @10 30
2 Light cavalry bow @6 12
97 AP
Command 2
1 Ordinary Commander 0
3 Heavy spearmen mediocre + support @7 21
2 Bowmen @7 14
2 Bowmen mediocre @5 10
45 AP
Command 3
1 Brilliant Ally-General (included) 0
6 Light cavalry bow @6 36
2 Heavy cavalry bow @11 22
58 AP

200 AP

Better? Smile
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 26, 2021 10:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So I like northern Dynasty but dislike what you've done.


Command 1
1 Brilliant Commander (included) 3
4 Elite Cataphracts @13 52
3 Heavy cavalry impact @10 30
2 Light cavalry bow @6 12
97 AP

Strike command. OK. I don't like that much HC impact have 1 less. Add a LI or 2. Un include the commander for sure. A brilliant included is asking for problems.
The problem is 4 +3 is actually only half the strike force you need to break your opponent. So this is not enough to win through. So you are counting too much on your 3 HC imapct getting to a flank. I add the LI to help shield the Cats on the way in first crossbows. Also you may want one in ambush.




Command 2
1 Ordinary Commander 0
3 Heavy spearmen mediocre + support @7 21
2 Bowmen @7 14
2 Bowmen mediocre @5 10
45 AP

So this is a dead corps that's purpose is to absorb the enemy attack and die slowly. OK. So get rid of the Medicore Bow, they are just deadies. You probably need another spear and 1-2 LI. the LI will slow the enemy coming to grips, or ambush and guard rough terrain or support your bow fire.


Command 3
1 Brilliant Ally-General (included) 0
6 Light cavalry bow @6 36
2 Heavy cavalry bow @11 22
58 AP
So "maybe" you could include a brilliant general with HC bow, if you are careful. but since its not legal to do that in this list. Don't. Now this corps does not need a LI.
That much LH plus 2 HC bow can get muscled by 4 enemy HC bow. I'd give up 2 LH for a 3rd HC bow. This is a good harassment corps but it won't win through.

Overall I see an army that had 4 assault units and 3+2 pretty good offensive supports. You can't break a large HI army with that. I mean a Southern Dynasty will have 4 Cats, 1 EL, 2 MI, 4-6 HI plus more. So they have what they need to face you off and smash your foot. Even a roman with minimal mounted to should be able to cope with 4 Cats.

So I would say you are trying to be too agile for a Cat based army. Strip out some stuff can get up to 6-8 Cats. Also your army wants to attack so the strategist should be considered since you are pre-500 AD.

You have to decide how to cope with rough terrain. Given your list has zero ability you basically decided to ignore that problem, which is one of the two right answers. So I would maintain that. Still a few LI like 3 in the army could help.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 26, 2021 11:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark, thanks for the detailed reply. Smile

First, I don't have to take Cataphracts. I can make them all HC Impact. Better or worse?

Why is it illegal to include a Brilliant ally-general in the allied Xianbei command?

Here is the list again, tweaked with your advice:

Command 1
1 Brilliant Commander 6
4 Elite Cataphracts @13 52
2 Cataphracts @11 22
2 Light cavalry bow @6 12
2 Light infantry bow @4 8
100 AP
Command 2
1 Ordinary Commander 0
4 Heavy spearmen mediocre + support @7 28
2 Bowmen @7 14
1 Light infantry bow @4 4
46 AP
Command 3
1 Competent Ally-General (included) -3
4 Light cavalry bow @6 24
3 Heavy cavalry bow @11 33
54 AP

200 AP

1 of the LI bow can be moved from the first command into the second.


I've replaced the heavy cav impact with cataphracts, so there are now 6 cats. I'll have another stab at the list (to make it more 'all-out cataphract') once you've clarified those 2 points (above), if you don't mind. Smile

Cheers
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KevinD
Centurion


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Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 12:15 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
Hazelbark, thanks for the detailed reply. Smile

First, I don't have to take Cataphracts. I can make them all HC Impact. Better or worse?

Why is it illegal to include a Brilliant ally-general in the allied Xianbei command?

Here is the list again, tweaked with your advice:

Command 1
1 Brilliant Commander 6
4 Elite Cataphracts @13 52
2 Cataphracts @11 22
2 Light cavalry bow @6 12
2 Light infantry bow @4 8
100 AP
Command 2
1 Ordinary Commander 0
4 Heavy spearmen mediocre + support @7 28
2 Bowmen @7 14
1 Light infantry bow @4 4
46 AP
Command 3
1 Competent Ally-General (included) -3
4 Light cavalry bow @6 24
3 Heavy cavalry bow @11 33
54 AP

200 AP

1 of the LI bow can be moved from the first command into the second.


I've replaced the heavy cav impact with cataphracts, so there are now 6 cats. I'll have another stab at the list (to make it more 'all-out cataphract') once you've clarified those 2 points (above), if you don't mind. Smile

Cheers


I assume Dan assumed the HC Bow were domestic, not Xienbei allies.

Grouping the HC Impact with the Cataphracts deprives the HC of their maneuverability. I would think you should have them in a separate command.

I’d be tempted to have:

    1st command with cataphracts, LI and HI. (In the center (more or less) to occupy the enemy’s attention.)

    2nd command with HC impact and LH. (Trying to maneuver and get or create an open wing.)

    3rd command with steppe auxiliary HC Bow and LH to cover a refused flank (or smash a weak enemy flank). Maybe 1-2 LMI Bw to up your firepower if you intended to rely on that (it makes it much harder to skirmish that wing though) and perhaps some LI to ambush or contest (slowly retreat in) difficult.


Get the Strategist to help you attack and maneuver.

More than 5-6 LH seems like a waste. 5 + 3 LI gives you +2 initiative.

A potentially unreliable ally who really adds nothing you can’t get in your main list is not all that interesting.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 12:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Kevin Smile

I'm guessing you're ditching the Bowmen to achieve this? Otherwise, something has to give somewhere points-wise for your idea (which sounds good) to be achieved.

A problem I see with grouping the cataphracts with the heavy infantry is that it will expose the heavy infantry (who aren't that great) that much sooner, and in the main zone of attack that the hopefully battle winning cataphracts will be operating in. That's why I kept them separate. It's also why I included some bowmen in that held back infantry command.

Thanks. Smile
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 1:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
Hi Kevin Smile

I'm guessing you're ditching the Bowmen to achieve this? Otherwise, something has to give somewhere points-wise for your idea (which sounds good) to be achieved.

A problem I see with grouping the cataphracts with the heavy infantry is that it will expose the heavy infantry (who aren't that great) that much sooner, and in the main zone of attack that the hopefully battle winning cataphracts will be operating in. That's why I kept them separate. It's also why I included some bowmen in that held back infantry command.

Thanks. Smile


Hi Cat,

If you attack you have a choice as to whether and where to engage the HI or not. If that command deploys last (and wouldn’t it if it’s your choice?), you can deploy the cataphracts and HI against the most favorable match up for each. Then you can choose whether and when bring the infantry up if there is something in front of them they can effectively support the cataphracts against, otherwise leave them back until something better develops.

If you are defending these options are probably all out the window - you are much less likely to see what that command will be faced up against, and your opponent is likely to deploy unfavorable matchups against both the cataphracts and heavy infantry (assuming he has such troops available to him opposite that command) and then to rush you pinning you back and depriving you of much of your options to maneuver and choose the timing of which fights occur when. (Of course some opponents won’t be able to take advantage of this when attacking you, but these are not the ones you need to worry about where and when the heavy infantry fight.)

Note that having both the HI and cataphracts in the same command that deploys last when you attack (and having two other highly maneuverable wings of HC and LC) gives you much greater flexibility about deploying to gain favorable matchups than does having them in separate commands. With separate commands you are hoping you can outguess your enemy about where to put your commands; by having both the cataphracts and heavy infantry in the last command that deploys you can react to actual enemy deployments, not just try to guess where his various troops will be.

PS - the amount of HI needed is pretty low (2-4 probably), if you get the matchups right they will be decisive, if you get them wrong it’s either more points held back from the fight or more units committed to their doom.

PPS - if you are dumping this many points (and one of your three generals) into your HI command it better be doing something other than “sitting backâ€; keeping 23% of your points and 20-30% of your CPs out of the fight is not a recipe for winning. Sure, occasionally you will have an awful matchup and this is the best you can do in what’s otherwise shaping up to be a calamity, but you should probably not be designing the army list with this as one of your go to tactics. Or so it seems to me.


Dernière édition par KevinD le Sam Nov 27, 2021 7:53 am; édité 1 fois
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 2:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK, *much* to think about here.

Will get back to you. Thanks. Smile
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 7:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
Hazelbark, thanks for the detailed reply. Smile

Why is it illegal to include a Brilliant ally-general in the allied Xianbei command?


I did not understand you had an ally and I don't think you need one.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 27, 2021 7:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:


A problem I see with grouping the cataphracts with the heavy infantry is that it will expose the heavy infantry (who aren't that great) that much sooner, and in the main zone of attack that the hopefully battle winning cataphracts will be operating in. That's why I kept them separate. It's also why I included some bowmen in that held back infantry command.


If you are fearful of the HI fighting then take less and leave in the rear. I think actually they hold up "sort of" against many things while the main strike force tries to win.
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muz177
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 28, 2021 11:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
and they are closely supported by cataphracts which go well against infantry - this makes these foot units more intimidating than they would otherwise be. And you also want to tempt enemy into committing at something which looks partly beatable.
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