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Pikes or Spearmen against Heavy Cavalry impetuous
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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borkil63
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 3:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Excuse me for my bad english.
You place if you can 1 mi support with 1 pk on left and 1 on right side. Hc impetuous must charge if you dont have 3 pt on command.
1 hc charge: 1pt vs mi +1 pt fot furious chargé. Mi have 1pt,+2 pt with support of pk, +1 pt for support if the mi lose thé fight..
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 3:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ALEXANDER a écrit:
Is there another answer to the question.


The most common answer is that cavalry are a highly mobile component of any army, who should be able to choose their optimum targets to hit - if they end up facing off against spearmen they are wasting their strengths, irrespective of whether they actually fight.

A player with cavalry should be trying to avoid getting them pinned by enemy spearmen, which they will struggle to beat, and the spear player should be trying to aggressively shove their spearmen in the face of enemy cavalry to pin and neutralize them with what is a cheaper troop type, so they can use other forces to win elsewhere on the table where they have an advantage.

OK, the cavalry can move away usually - but a typical ADLG game only lasts 6-8 turns, so even a few turns where spearmen are neutralizing potent enemy cavalry is going to greatly contribute to an overall win. This face-off is a good result for the army with the spearmen - the spearmen usually don't need to beat the cavalry, they just need to occupy them for a few turns and not lose.

Mediocre spearmen are arguably better at this than normal ones, as they are cheaper...
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 8:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:

Mediocre spearmen are arguably better at this than normal ones, as they are cheaper...


Yes.
Heavy Spearmen mediocre or
Heavy Spearmen mediocre missle support
or Pkemen mediocre
are cheap
They do not have to attack.but can stay defensivly
and pin the Cav enemy.

Heavy Spearmen ordinary have alomst the same cost as Hc Impetuos. But they are slower and have no armour.

Spearmen elite, Pikemen ordinary and Pikemen elite are much too expensive.compared to HC impetuous.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 16, 2022 9:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ALEXANDER a écrit:
Spearmen elite, Pikemen ordinary and Pikemen elite are much too expensive.compared to HC impetuous.


HI Spearmen are much, much better against HC Impetuous than HI Sword are though... and HI Spearmen cost the same as HI Sword.

So maybe HI Spear are actually too cheap? Wink

No ancients ruleset has a points system based on one single interaction between two troop types - almost every 1-1 interaction will be imbalanced one way or another, it's the overall effectiveness aganst many opponents that any system must try to achieve.
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 1:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[quote="madaxeman")]
So maybe HI Spear are actually too cheap? Wink .[/quote]

I didn't mean to say that spear or pikemen should be cheaper against all other troop type.
In fact you are right. Heavy swordmen impact are too expensive (and too strong), or did anybody even saw a roman player build up historically in 3 lines.
In addition I do not know of any ancient HC impact, that broke though a roman legion frontally (just Seleucid Cataphracts did that) nor do I know of any battle where roman HC or MC broke through the line of Gallic Medium Swordsmen.

I think that the majority of wargamers love to play cavalry armies and I have the feeling that the "oracle," unconsciously changes the rules to adopt to buyers' preferences.
I still remember the second edition of DBM. Cavalry was allowed to evade from a attack of pikemen.

The fact that with ADLG you have to mix bowmen into a line of pikemen does not feel historically correct. I know its "just a game" without claiming to be historically correct. But maybe they will try to pay more attention to it with the next version 5.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 2:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ALEXANDER a écrit:


I didn't mean to say that spear or pikemen should be cheaper against all other troop type.
In fact you are right. Heavy swordmen impact are too expensive (and too strong), or did anybody even saw a roman player build up historically in 3 lines.
In addition I do not know of any ancient HC impact, that broke though a roman legion frontally (just Seleucid Cataphracts did that) nor do I know of any battle where roman HC or MC broke through the line of Gallic Medium Swordsmen.

I think that the majority of wargamers love to play cavalry armies and I have the feeling that the "oracle," unconsciously changes the rules to adopt to buyers' preferences.
I still remember the second edition of DBM. Cavalry was allowed to evade from a attack of pikemen.

The fact that with ADLG you have to mix bowmen into a line of pikemen does not feel historically correct. I know its "just a game" without claiming to be historically correct. But maybe they will try to pay more attention to it with the next version 5.


You don’t “have†to mix bowmen in with pikes. Pikes charging will beat Impact or Impetuous HC without doing this. +2 VS +1 first round and +2 VS 0 after that, with the pikes having 4 CPs vs 3 for the HC.

BTW, it’s probably better to have a few LI Bw in front of your Spears or Pikes as compared to bowmen. The LI can gradually cause a trickle to casualties (1/6 shooting LI every phase) to HC that just sit there and can evade out of the way if charged. HC Impact/Impetuous that have taken a shooting disorder will be much worse in combat. If you get close enough the HC can’t charge the LI without also having to charge the HI behind them and can be ZOCed by the HI through the LI.

Arrian’s “Order of Battle Against the Alans†is generally taken as the source for EI Roman legions being unable to stand against charging lancers in the open without extraordinary preparations. (Deep formations, uphill, supported by artillery and archers IIRC.) There are not a whole lot of accounts of EI Roman legions fighting heavy cavalry (as opposed to cataphract) lancers.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 8:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So your question is how does foot win versus these type of mounted.

The answer is should it straight up? The author has clearly stated by his design that good foot (ordinary spear and Pike) should be reasonably, but not completely, safe when receiving this attack. But conversely if the foot attacks the mounted, then the odds swing to a more uncertain point for the foot.

I think people seem to agree this is acceptable interaction in game terms and has enough basis in history to not be wrong there either.

The result is everyone is talking about to change the situation from "straight up" to one where you can gain an advantage.
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 8:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You can also just "go for it."

H Sp vs. MC Impet is +1 vs. +1 first round. After that is it +1 v -1 for the spear if they win, 1 vs. 0 if a tie and 0 v 0 if they lose. They will probably win a straight up charge.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 17, 2022 11:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
You can also just "go for it."

H Sp vs. MC Impet is +1 vs. +1 first round. After that is it +1 v -1 for the spear if they win, 1 vs. 0 if a tie and 0 v 0 if they lose. They will probably win a straight up charge.


The HI’s extra CP (HI = 4, Cav = 3) means even if you suffer losing an extra CP due to furious charge (which can only happen once in the first round) the HI are still basically equal or better off than than the Cav.
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ALEXANDER
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 18, 2022 12:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes all true.
MC impetuous cost 7 points
MC impact cost 8 points
Heavy Spearmen 8 points

The cavalry can move 4 UD and can extent 3 units
The infantry moves 3UD/2UD and can extent 1 unit
The cavalry can disengage if the combat is lost

Its still a good tactic for MCi mpetuous not to attack,
but to move into ZOC and let the infantry attack them
In the cavalry turn he can either rally and continue the fight or disengage.
Its a good way to slow down the frontal fight
and win the flanks.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 19, 2022 9:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Don't forget one thing, however: if pikes charges MC, or even Hc, cavalry surely had have losses and pikemen too, depending of dice. If cavalry desengage, in following turn they are subject to uncrontroled charge on disordered pikes. Decision rarely occurs in on round.

As i read the discuss line, i can see the thinking is about frontal contact, combat factor against conbat factor. It's not a good way of planning, as ADLG is disagned for manoeuvres, overlap, taking flank, soffetenning ennemies, deception plans and so on. In this particular case (pk or sp vs cav impactor impetuous) the decision will always occurs in the sides, given by the others troops of the army. The flanking troops first clean in their front , and after that overlap cv and take the flank. If sp/pk zoc the cv, they suffer 1 didorder if they move away the sp/pk' zoc. Idem for cv, a frontal charge is almost a suicide, they must so fixing the big boys and let their support troops made the job.
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