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The end of shooting Cav armies
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Army lists
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redcoat
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 28 Avr 2022
Messages: 5
MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 28, 2022 7:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have a Xiongnu army that I play with Might of Arms and it will be an easy conversion to ADLG.

It was a long time building though since as you said, metal cavalry armies are very expensive.

It started as a small allied force for my Han army, and then expanded over many years. I now have 21 stands of Heavy Cavalry and 24 stands of Light Cavalry and 3 generals. Then there are 18 stands of medium infantry with bow and 12 stands of Light infantry.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1519
MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 29, 2022 12:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Xiong-nu can have Cataphracts so not so pure a shooty cav army. The 4-8 Cats can deliver a serious blow against many things.

I too hve it from days gone by.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 29, 2022 12:36 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
danikine74 a écrit:
I play ottoman empire since I was 18, now I'm 48.

I I'm having faith crise in cavalry,.... I can have HC impact bow elite... yes at 14 points cost. 2 stands, enemy ussulay has 6 to 8 knights, more knights than I cavalry, I m ussulay poshed out of the table.

Jennisaries... simple MI impact efaces me from the table , HI with some LI crushes them. By the time I clear or take some terrain my cavs are out of the table....


So in V3, I took Ottomans and held the top table for like 4 of 5 rounds including facing a HYW French with 10-12 Hkn elite and defeating the previous world champion. I think the only time a fight started between KN and yy Cv was by me charging them in flank or rear. I took no Serbs

The Janissaries historically did not succeed to-to-toe with Armored European foot. It was a big problem. And they defended from behind fortifications mostly against Mounted. So they are about right historically.

Do you want more LH or less. That is a legitimate choice and varies by foe.

The Ottomans take a lot of effort to run. You never engage in parallel lines you make your opponent twist and turn. Most games I am nervous around turn 2 or 3. Then Turn 4 or 5 the opponent realizes they dance at the end of my string and getting arrows all the time. I don't really fear enemy maneuver armies.

So have faith. The Sublime Porte is strong.
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redcoat
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 28 Avr 2022
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 29, 2022 1:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Xiong-nu can have Cataphracts so not so pure a shooty cav army. The 4-8 Cats can deliver a serious blow against many things.

I too hve it from days gone by.


Ah yes, well I play them as an early list against the Han so no cataphracts.

Actually I'm pleased the list has a cataphract option. I have been on the fence about whether the leather horse armour found in grave sites qualifies as cataphract armour, but it suggests a heavier fighting style from the previous times.

And apologies to the OP, I do think that table space could be an issue. I'm new to this game but I think the small table sizes could be a huge difference. I have played Warrior, but gave that up and have played Might of Arms which uses very large tables. We typically play on a 12' x 5' table. When the Han line cracks or over-extends itself those light cavalry get through the gaps and are extremely dangerous. The Han can't just sit and defend, a break will form eventually, and if they try to push the Xiongnu off the table then it is easy to create a gap by mistake. Historically, the Han beat the Xiongnu by getting Caucasian horses and raising better cavalry armies that could beat the Xiongnu at their own game.

I don't think think the Xiongnu would win against one of my renaissance armies but I haven't tried. I always stick to period opponents and don't worry about how I would do in a tournament (not well would be the usual answer there).
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1519
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 02, 2022 7:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Table size certainly matters.

What I have found is there are a lot of games that burn a lot of time before the fighting starts. You are supposed to get the sense of maneuvering to battle, or an extended skirmish. But what practically happens it is the point in time where stronger players apply their skills to multiply the differences. And just like compound interest it builds up much quicker than people realize so the stronger player starts in a stronger position when the meaningful fighting starts.

In ADLG, that is practically compressed. 85%+ games end in a very timely fashion and that is usually less than 7 turns.

So what that means is you only have 2 turns of fancy footwork, before something meaningful needs to happen. This does a few things. It basically requires the stronger player to put their army at greater risk than they would otherwise prefer. It means that a plan has to really be about getting in position fast. The Mongol lets drag this Russian army forward for 2 weeks wear it down so the battle is basically over, is not fun. So ADLG starts at a point where the battle is engaged at a more equal point. Still people do not realize how effective two turns of shooting can be as softening up a foe before the meat work occurs.
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 03, 2022 9:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
danikine74 a écrit:
Hi guys,

I've been à Cav player for long years, since my first ottoman army under WRG7 Ed....

I find it now rare and exotic

Do you regularly find Shootin cav armies to play against or with?

They have dissappear? Why? Too small table? Not enough playing time? Too expensive too little armies??

I used to be quite good player, I will end my life playing 34 cartaginian army soon...???


Seems to me you are playing your Cav armies to the strengths of your opponents rather than to their weaknesses. Facing knights with cav is hopeless. You need to ZOC the KN with LH and occasionally sacrifice one so that you can turn the flanks with the rest. If the KN player is clever and uses spear and terrain to protect his flanks and the odd bowman in between commands, you're in trouble for sure.

One of the problems you are having to deal with is that there are very few inexperienced players left on the circuit, particularly in France. They've also had years of facing good players using Yuan/Byzantine impact/bow cavalry and have devised tactics to deal with them. In the "good old days" very few players used bowmen or seriously thought about how to defend their flanks. Most lists were small and inflexible. You could kill 3-4 light units in the first two rounds and manoeuvre at will to finish off the rest of the army which put a premium on cav armies that could achieve this. When I first started playing ADLG in France around 2016 I used mixed commands with small late medieval armies (War of the Roses) or wall of crap armies (Blemmye). In both cases, my many Byzantine/Ghaznavid opponents were completely at a loss as to how to deal with these lists as they'd never seen anything like them before. There was nothing wrong with their lists, they just didn't know how to use them when they were out of their comfort zones.

Having said the above, I rarely use bow cav armies and when I do I usually get poor results. The main reason is due to time. Seven turns of play is insufficient to get the most of these types of armies unless you are lucky with shooting or you engage in risky combats at unfavourable odds. A lot of players struggle to even reach seven turns and a not inconsiderable number (particularly in SW France...) will not play beyond the minimum number of turns if things are going against them. So if you want a result rather than another boring draw you charge in at a disvadvantage and pray to the dice gods.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1519
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 04, 2022 2:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowhitsky a écrit:

Having said the above, I rarely use bow cav armies and when I do I usually get poor results. The main reason is due to time. Seven turns of play is insufficient to get the most of these types of armies unless you are lucky with shooting or you engage in risky combats at unfavourable odds. A lot of players struggle to even reach seven turns and a not inconsiderable number (particularly in SW France...) will not play beyond the minimum number of turns if things are going against them. So if you want a result rather than another boring draw you charge in at a disvadvantage and pray to the dice gods.


How do the players refuse to adhere to the rules of 7 turn minimum? Seems like an entirely different problem.

I agree bow cav armies have to fight at some point to win. I would disagree "at unfavorable odds" but the opponents play is certainly a factor. Every Bow cav army needs "something" that can close on a wounded foe. Almost every one does...
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 04, 2022 3:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:


How do the players refuse to adhere to the rules of 7 turn minimum? Seems like an entirely different problem.

I agree bow cav armies have to fight at some point to win. I would disagree "at unfavorable odds" but the opponents play is certainly a factor. Every Bow cav army needs "something" that can close on a wounded foe. Almost every one does...


You play really slow until time runs out on turn 7. You can for example take your time with deployment. Argue endlessly about irrelevant points in the rules. I even had one player turn around his surviving Ghaznavid cavalry and walk them away from my WOTR on turm 6. Took him the last hour to move them away twice. I played both my moves in under 10 mimutes.

If you don't have an umpire checking on time keeping and dealing with these gentlemenn you can even get away with less turns. To my knowledge 5 turns is the record.

The unfavourable odds come about if you don't have enough turns to gain an advantage through shooting and/or manoeuvre. You then have no choice but charge anything to hand or accept a draw.
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Longtooth
Signifer


Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014
Messages: 349
Localisation: Oxford
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 04, 2022 7:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Cavalry armies are still competitive. If you look at the recent Roll Call results, for example, seven of the top ten players were fielding cavalry armies:

http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9280

Jesse
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 04, 2022 11:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And 9 out of 10 bottom were cavalry armies.

And the theme was?
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 04, 2022 11:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And 9 out of 10 bottom were cavalry armies.

And the theme was?
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Longtooth
Signifer


Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014
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Localisation: Oxford
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 05, 2022 4:17 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
.....by my count, only four of the bottom ten armies were cavalry armies.

Jesse
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danikine74
Archer


Inscrit le: 19 Mai 2015
Messages: 59
Localisation: montpon-menesterol
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 4:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I ve completely lost faith, I gave up a few months ago. Thanks for sharing your precious thoughts.

I have not enough time to reach a satisfactory learning curve

By
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