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Rivers, or hydraulic engineering
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 493
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Dim Mai 29, 2022 1:58 am    Sujet du message: Rivers, or hydraulic engineering Répondre en citant
What are the rules on rivers? (Beyond being 2-6 MUs from a short table edge and 1-2 MUs wide.)

Do the have to be straight and (exactly) parallel to the shot table edges?

Or,

1. Can the have one or more bends?

2. If required to be straight, can they be closer to the nearest short table edge on one player’s side of the table than the other? (i.e., can the be “diagonal†so long as they respect the 2-6 MU stance from the side table edge rule?)

Is any of this covered in the rules, errata or FAQs?
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Dim Mai 29, 2022 7:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If your shapes and angles fit in the criteria of your first sentence where is the problem.?
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1457
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Dim Mai 29, 2022 10:03 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Every one I've ever seen deployed has been straight.

That may be because that's how they are sold, it may be because it just makes it easier to cross them, or it may be because many of us still remember the historic era of custom terrain rules-bending Barkerese w+nkery that infected the hobby more than a decade ago and we are better people now who really don't want to be party to exhuming that particular stinking cheese-riddled corpse ever again.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Dim Mai 29, 2022 10:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Bit of pbsd seeping out.

Placing a straight canal like terrain piece just removes so much debate/ arguments, it avoids so much time wasted, when the game can can just carry on instead.

We can be our own worst enemy.
How many times have we heard "just one more turn" before the finishing bell rang, I needed just one more turn.....

River crossings on the flank never become the big game changer to warrant too much thought.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Dim Mai 29, 2022 5:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
River must be linear. p 70
Only linear roads may have a bend.
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2022 5:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for the replies above.

Assuming a river must be straight (which seems perhaps geologically a bit questionable but cleans up a lot of fiddle game issues)…

How to bridges/fords work?

Do they completely trump all the special reviver rules include:

1. Movement penalties due to river terrain.

2. Requirements to cross a river orthogonal to its direction of flow (as the bridge might cross at another angle due to the requirement that roads have no more than one bend).

3. Combat penalties due to the river’s terrain type.

4. Bonus for defending a river bank against troops crossing the river over the bridge/ford?

5. Prohibition against shooting in a river (for units crossing via the bridge or ford).
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2022 6:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If you treat the crossing as p71 " dried river bed"
You are answering most of your questions.
Remember fords and bridges do not link tops of river banks until after this period of history, so defending river banks still works crossing or no crossing.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2022 9:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
Thanks for the replies above.
Assuming a river must be straight (which seems perhaps geologically a bit questionable but cleans up a lot of fiddle game issues)…
How to bridges/fords work?
Do they completely trump all the special reviver rules include:
1. Movement penalties due to river terrain.
2. Requirements to cross a river orthogonal to its direction of flow (as the bridge might cross at another angle due to the requirement that roads have no more than one bend).
3. Combat penalties due to the river’s terrain type.
4. Bonus for defending a river bank against troops crossing the river over the bridge/ford?
5. Prohibition against shooting in a river (for units crossing via the bridge or ford).


The rules say linear. Linear means straight. this is designed to make the game enjoyable and defeat attempts to have rules gotcha efforts. Just as troops are not in perfect squares certain accommodations are required to play. The game has other mechanics to accommodate the real world un even-ness. This is illustrated in defending a riverbank, where the defender does not need to line the river bank literally, but rather the attack must not have fully emerged. A great way to fix both your geological concerns and game play is model the terrain with a straight edge but make its appearance undulate and pool with depths and eddys. But if you do not have the correct river fish for the region in question it could cost a shame point.

Bridges and fords do not complete disregard everything.
1 There primary role is to permit movement at speed along the road. Movement along the road does two things. negates any river reducing speed.
2 I guess it is possible that a road can meet a river at an angle, I would presume out of commonsense that crossing in that manner is permitted. Certainly "without penalty" could assume such.
3 road (and hence bridge and fords) are governed in this matter as p 72 "does not change the type of terrain crossed in regards to combat".
4 The riverbank bonus seems to be in effect.
5 I can see a discussion either way on the shooting from being located on bridge or ford. Combat is a melee reference so p72 is not determinative, however p 71 a base is in the river. But the without penalty could apply here.
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Mike Bennett
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Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 488
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 30, 2022 11:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Playing in the Bournemouth tournament I faced a guy using a very purpose built river with a deployment and battle plan clearly designed to exploit it to the maximum.

The river was 1 ud wide and placed from 5 to 6ud in throughout his deployment area. This left a space beyond the river from 4ud to 5ud in from the table edge, and of course exactly 1ud wide, in which he could deploy a column of non lights. The banks were perfectly straight, to maintain the 1ud width and 1ud deployment and allow a straight forward movement space in his deployment zone. Outside this there was a kink of less than 1ud, which ensured that on my side of the table there was no 1UD non light deployment space for me to place units to counter him beyond the river. Being less than 1ud he could of course advance past it easily using a sideways slide.

He used this “safe zone†to deploy a group of archers, who ran down the edge of the river before turning 90 degree to shoot across the river, protected by it, creating a danger zone for me within 3ud of the river.

I did consider objecting, but I decided that my opponent would be likely to be upset and that it was not worth the ill feeling that could be engendered. Of course I did feel a bit hard done by myself, but accepted it and got on with the game. He probably used it against everybody that weekend, maybe any/all of us should have called the umpire?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1519
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 31, 2022 5:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
Outside this there was a kink


Completing illegal.

Whoever umpired at Bournemouth should be notified to be clear in the future.

Hard to go un-ring the bell after the comp is long over.
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 31, 2022 6:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dan, is what made it illegal that there was a kink in the river, i.e., that is wasn’t straight? Or something else?

Would a straight but ‘diagonal’ (i.e., not parallel to the board edge) river have been ok? Or is that also beyond the pale?
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Mike Bennett
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 31, 2022 6:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
The rules say linear. Linear means straight


Prior to this discussion I had not considered “linear†to be so restrictive. I had simply read it as narrow feature, 1ud for a road, 1ud to 2ud for a river, and long enough to run between table edges. This distinguishes it from an area feature which has a maximum of 6UD. i have also considered that it should not be too contrived, but reasonable curves and variations in width are allowed. Even the straight pieces I use are not modelled with ruler straight edges, and I have a curved pieces too. Of course they are general purpose gaming rivers anot ADLG exclusively.

Food for though on what the rules allow and what we are each personally willing to try to get away with.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 31, 2022 6:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't see that in a simple reading of the text.
I think that such ideas can only be propagated in a carefully written Errata+FAQ+Clarfications effort.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 31, 2022 9:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
Dan, is what made it illegal that there was a kink in the river, i.e., that is wasn’t straight? Or something else?


Yes the kink is illegal.
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MC_Delicatessen
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 30 Juil 2020
Messages: 87
MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 01, 2022 8:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Having straight rivers, coasts, roads and terrain with simple shapes and even curves..  all makes more sense the more I play ADLG.

Of course, two consenting adults can get as kinky as they want.

However, if you take kinky rivers, squiggly terrain and twisty roads into a conversation with strangers, sadly you are going to be at the mercy of random gamey muppets with a micro measuring obsession, as in Mike’s example.

And yes, straight terrain can be pretty!
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