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Unreliable corps; revealing an ambush
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Mike Bennett
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Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 9:17 am    Sujet du message: Unreliable corps; revealing an ambush Répondre en citant
Hesitant corps pg80, bp2;

In turn 1, before testing for reliability, can a defender voluntarily reveal an unreliable corps ambush if the enemy come within 4ud? BP2 (voluntarily revealing an ambush) only mentions corps already established a hesitant, unlike bp1 on moving and shooting which explicitly includes corps which have “not yet testedâ€,

As a follow on question, if the unreliable corps can voluntarily reveal are they automatically reliable no matter what they roll as they deploy within 4ud, or does “comes within†require an active enemy movement?
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AlanCutner
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 10:36 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Not directly a response to your question but mildly relevant. In a recent game a player deployed his skirmishers within 4UD of an ambush from an enemy allied corps. It was ruled the ally was automatically reliable if there were any troops in the ambush. Ofcourse the deploying player wouldn't know if there were troops in the ambush at that point.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 10:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Not directly a response to your question but mildly relevant. In a recent game a player deployed his skirmishers within 4UD of an ambush from an enemy allied corps. It was ruled the ally was automatically reliable if there were any troops in the ambush. Ofcourse the deploying player wouldn't know if there were troops in the ambush at that point.


Interesting as 4ud is for deployed troops, surely it is 1ud for an ambush marker?
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 3:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree with Mike. You have to come within 4UD of a unit, not an ambush marker, to make the hesitant corp reliable. You have to come with 1 UD of a non-fakeambush marker to make the hesitant corp reliable.

The owner of hesitant troops in ambush cannot voluntarily reveal the ambush, he must wait for them to be discovered, usually by enemy coming with 1 UD.

To answer your original question, I don’t think a player who has not yet tested his unreliable or allied general can voluntarily place his troops on the table just be ease the enemy are within 4 UDs of it but it would be good to get the powers that be to rule on this.
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Longtooth
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 3:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I would argue that unreliable troops in ambush (who have not yet made their first activation roll) are allowed to reveal themselves if any enemy comes within 4BW.

Second bullet point under hesitant corps (P 80) specifically refers to 'hesitant corps' not 'hesitant corps or those of an unreliable or allied corps that has not yet tested'.

Happy to be proven wrong, but that is how I read it.

Jesse
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Dickstick
Légat


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 5:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Food for thought.
Is a an allied/unreliable command reliable before the first activation roll?

P80 Roll makes them hesitant ie a change.

Becoming reliable bullet point 4.
"A hesitant Corp becomes reliable again "

Might be a translation issue? But we may have a sequence of reliable/unreliable/reliable.

I'd assumed we only had unreliable/reliable sequence.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 7:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
P.77 para 4 sentence 2 provides an absolute right to reveal units in ambush during the opponent's movement phase.
"A player can also reveal units in ambush during the opponent's movement phase as soon as an enemy unit is or comes within 4 UD of the marker."

Thus, if during game turn 1 an invader moves to/within 4 UD of a defender's allied/unreliable corps ambush marker (before the defender has had an opportunity to test the corps for hesitancy), actual units may be deployed, removing the need for a hesitancy test in the defender's first turn. A fake ambush is NOT revealed in these circumstances.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juil 15, 2022 7:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I read “can†to mean it is voluntary. Hesitant corps can’t voluntarily reveal troops.
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Longtooth
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 16, 2022 7:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
Hesitant corps can’t voluntarily reveal troops.


Yes, but you do not become hesitant until you roll a 1 on your first activation roll.

Jesse
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juil 16, 2022 3:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Completely moot. I suspect "A hesitant corps" in the 2d bullet is intended as a shorthand for " The troops of a hesitant corps, or those of an unreliable or allied corps that have not yet tested" found in the 1st bullet. But it's not, so...

It would be so much easier if it said "An unreliable or allied corps is hesitant until it becomes reliable. It becomes reliable: * if it rolls anything but 1 on its first activation roll..."
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 17, 2022 9:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think the main point here is that this seems to be a way of finessing the reliability rules and therefore the defender shouldn't be allowed to reveal an allied/unreliable corps' ambushes in this way.

However, if you disagree, consider this:

If the defender chooses to reveal an ally's ambush when the attacker moves troops within 4 UD (but not 1 UD) of the ambush, does this meet the reliability trigger condition?

The point here is that the rule for triggering has different conditions for ambushes and deployed troops.

At the point the attacker moved units within 4 UD of the ambush they had not met the relevant condition.

Once the ambushing unit is revealed/deployed, the condition for deployed units applies. Which is that the enemy moves a unit within 4UD of of a deployed unit.

If the attacker stops their move when the ambush is revealed, how is the trigger for deployed units met?

Too devious? Rolling Eyes

Dave
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 17, 2022 9:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dave's suggestion seems sensible to me, and in line with the rules as written. Guessing what Herve intended, or should have written, is an inexact science.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 17, 2022 10:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree with the thrust of Dave’s suggestion that revealing the ambushing unit is not intended to be allowed by the rules (and thus should not be allowed), but his bit about “deployed units†is reading an extra adjective into the rule and is not what they actually say. They say “ comes with 4 UDs of one of the corps unitsâ€.

The powers that be need to clean up what is actually allowed here.
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MC_Delicatessen
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 30 Juil 2020
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 16, 2022 11:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Interesting one this and is still open right?

My take is that the book says "a hesitant corps cannot voluntarily reveal its ambushes". Before the first activation roll, it's not hesitant yet. So, I think, on the first turn, before the activation die roll, if the opponent comes within 4UD then the unreliable/ally can reveal their ambush, and hence avoid becoming hesitant.

I think this is fair enough - it's up to the opponent to realise that there is a potentially hesitant command's ambush and not to not go within 4UD on the first turn. The trade off is that the other player is taking an almighty risk with an unreliable/ally ambush. If it becomes hesitant that ambush is crippled as only triggered/if the opponent comes within 1UD and cannot be be voluntarily revealed until the command is activated.

I like it TBH. And I won't be sticking my unreliable elephant general in a mid table forest ambush any time soon!
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fdunadan
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 16, 2022 9:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And since a corps become totally reliable if an ennemy unit come within 4 UD, the question has no problem... Rolling Eyes
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