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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 16, 2022 9:53 pm Sujet du message: |
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fdunadan a écrit: | And since a corps become totally reliable if an ennemy unit come within 4 UD, the question has no problem... |
So your view is:
In turn 1 the defender's potential unreliability is not yet established and is therefore irrelevant. He can deploy whenever any enemy move within 4ud of an ambush marker and this then makes them automatically reliable, no need to ever dice for it. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4709
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 17, 2022 7:21 pm Sujet du message: |
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Pour révéler une embuscade, le corps doit être activé.
Pour activer un corps, il faut lancer le dé.
Donc on sait si l'allié est fiable avant de placer les unités en embuscade. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021 Messages: 500
Localisation: Texas
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 17, 2022 7:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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Thanks for replying!
Does this correctly translate to:
To reveal an ambush, the body must be activated.
To activate a body, roll the die.
So we know if the ally is reliable before placing the units in ambush.
I assume the “before placing the units in ambush†above means “before placing the ambushing units on the table†not “when first writing down which units are in the ambushâ€, no?
Does this mean:
1. Attacker in his first turn (only) moves with 4 UD of Defender’s ambush marker which contains troops from an allied or unreliable command.
2. If the defender wishes to place these troops on the table he must roll a 2-6.
Some follow on questions:
1. Can the defender roll such a die for an empty ambush marker?
2. If the defender does this, can he also roll another die (trying for a modified 6 after spending 2CP/+1 if he wishes) on his first turn, or does the roll above count as his first turn’s CP roll? |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Mer Aoû 17, 2022 8:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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There seems to be some confusion. Here is the sequence:
On the very first Attacker's move, some of their units end up within 4 UD of a Defender's ambush marker.
The Defender's units in Ambush are part of an Unreliable or Allied Corps.
If the Defender's units are deemed Hesitant, then the Defender cannot reveal them.
If not, then they may reveal and being within 4UD of the enemy, will become Reliable.
Since the Defender has not made the Corps first Activation Roll, their status is undetermined. |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 3:53 am Sujet du message: |
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lionelrus a écrit: | Pour révéler une embuscade, le corps doit être activé.
Pour activer un corps, il faut lancer le dé.
Donc on sait si l'allié est fiable avant de placer les unités en embuscade. |
Hi Lionel
Sorry, i do not understand, as during the attacker's first turn the defenders ambush would be placed before the defender's corps was ever activated by a command dice roll.
An enemy coming within 4ud gives the option to voluntarily reveal an ambush in their turn, unless the ambushers are unreliable. If this is done by the attacker in the first turn then the defender will never have rolled a command dice, and it is allowed, since he is not then unreliable. The question is whether this is the intention, or an accident of phrasing.
Nb
If the defender can reveal this is really useful, as it might then be argued that he cannot be unreliable as there are enemy within 4ud (but see my initial follow on question)
If he cannot reveal it is very dangerous, as the attacker could arrange units nearby to massively constrain deployment options. Theoretically this could be limited to only one unit or two light foot directly on the marker. |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 6:26 am Sujet du message: |
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The ambush could be four heavy troops in a wood on flank sector next to cross table centre line. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 7:33 am Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | The ambush could be four heavy troops in a wood on flank sector next to cross table centre line. |
Deployment can be blocked, depending on the direction of enemy approach, as it cannot be within 1UD of them |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 7:55 am Sujet du message: |
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Agreed.
But this is about a question of is the ambush reliable or unreliable before being able to dice to know if unreliable.
For me they are reliable until someone can prove otherwise. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4709
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 11:06 am Sujet du message: |
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Mike Bennett a écrit: | lionelrus a écrit: | Pour révéler une embuscade, le corps doit être activé.
Pour activer un corps, il faut lancer le dé.
Donc on sait si l'allié est fiable avant de placer les unités en embuscade. |
Hi Lionel
Sorry, i do not understand, as during the attacker's first turn the defenders ambush would be placed before the defender's corps was ever activated by a command dice roll.
An enemy coming within 4ud gives the option to voluntarily reveal an ambush in their turn, unless the ambushers are unreliable. If this is done by the attacker in the first turn then the defender will never have rolled a command dice, and it is allowed, since he is not then unreliable. The question is whether this is the intention, or an accident of phrasing.
Nb
If the defender can reveal this is really useful, as it might then be argued that he cannot be unreliable as there are enemy within 4ud (but see my initial follow on question)
If he cannot reveal it is very dangerous, as the attacker could arrange units nearby to massively constrain deployment options. Theoretically this could be limited to only one unit or two light foot directly on the marker. |
Nous discutons (inutilement, comme d'habitude) de savoir si un corps non fiable et en embuscade peut être rendu fiable par l'approche d'une unité ennemie
Au premier tour de l'attaquant, les marqueurs d'embuscade sont placés, mais pas les unités.
Donc :
1) Si l'ennemi s'approche à moins de 1UD, l'embuscade est révélée et le corps devient fiable dés le tour du défenseur.
2) Si l'ennemi est à plus de 4 UD, nous restons dans le cas général .
3) Si l'ennemi est à moins de 4UD et à plus de 1UD, alors l'embuscade n'est pas révélée et le corps ne devient pas fiable automatiquement, la fiabilité dépend du jet d'activation.
Au tour du défenseur, celui-ci doit activer son corps non fiable en lançant un dé. S'il obtient 1, le corps est non fiable. Il ne peut pas alors déployer les unités placées en embuscade, et donc rendre son corps fiable.
S'il obtient autre chose que 1, le corps est fiable. Il n'a donc pas besoin de révéler son embuscade pour le rendre fiable.
Il reste le cas particulier ( voir errata août 2022) des embuscades placées derrière une colline et dans une ravine. Si l'ennemi s'approche à moins de 4UD et à plus d'une UD, le corps redevient fiable et l'embuscade est révélée. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017 Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 11:18 am Sujet du message: |
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lionelrus a écrit: | 3) Si l'ennemi est à moins de 4UD et à plus de 1UD, alors l'embuscade n'est pas révélée et le corps ne devient pas fiable automatiquement, la fiabilité dépend du jet d'activation.
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Clearly you are frustrated at what you see as pointless discussion. However this is not me trying to be an arse raising ridiculous questions for the sake of it.The rules give an unexpected result and I wanted to confirm that this is deliberate
In the english version at least even an unreliable ambusher can voluntarily deploy in turn 1 in the situation you quote when the attacker comes within 4ud, no need to wait for 1ud. See the initial post
"P2 (voluntarily revealing an ambush) only mentions corps already established a hesitant, unlike bp1 on moving and shooting which explicitly includes corps which have “not yet tested†|
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4709
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 3:07 pm Sujet du message: |
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Mike Bennett a écrit: | lionelrus a écrit: | 3) Si l'ennemi est à moins de 4UD et à plus de 1UD, alors l'embuscade n'est pas révélée et le corps ne devient pas fiable automatiquement, la fiabilité dépend du jet d'activation.
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Clearly you are frustrated at what you see as pointless discussion. However this is not me trying to be an arse raising ridiculous questions for the sake of it.The rules give an unexpected result and I wanted to confirm that this is deliberate
In the english version at least even an unreliable ambusher can voluntarily deploy in turn 1 in the situation you quote when the attacker comes within 4ud, no need to wait for 1ud. See the initial post
"P2 (voluntarily revealing an ambush) only mentions corps already established a hesitant, unlike bp1 on moving and shooting which explicitly includes corps which have “not yet tested†|
P80 ENGLISH RULEBOOK HESITANT CORP "a hesitant corp cannot voluntary reveal its ambushes. It must wait until they are discovered by ennemy."
So, according with anothers points of rule:
1 you cannot do anything before corps activation
2 if you roll 1, your corp is hesitant and you can't revel a ambush.
What is unclear in that? _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 3:09 pm Sujet du message: |
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This seems to me to be exactly the level of question that could be quickly answered by a functioning arbitration committee. It's not that important either way and if the author doesn't like the answer, well, there's always 2023 errata. Asking everyone to "roll a die" is kind of shabby. It doesn't promote the game. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4709
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 3:14 pm Sujet du message: |
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Za Otlichiye a écrit: | This seems to me to be exactly the level of question that could be quickly answered by a functioning arbitration committee. It's not that important either way and if the author doesn't like the answer, well, there's always 2023 errata. Asking everyone to "roll a die" is kind of shabby. It doesn't promote the game. |
Ce comité existe déjà et j'en suis un des responsables "règles".
Veuillez remarquer qu'à chaque fois que j'ai donné un avis sur ce forum, les erratas officiels m'ont donné raison. _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021 Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 4:17 pm Sujet du message: |
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It would be helpful if there was a visible introduction to the DT - its purpose and its members.
I don't want to suggest the DT look at minor rules questions if they are supposed to be looking at deep gameplay design questions.
Anyway, this is getting off the subject of this thread. |
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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 710
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Jeu Aoû 18, 2022 4:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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Za Otlichiye a écrit: | It would be helpful if there was a visible introduction to the DT - its purpose and its members.
I don't want to suggest the DT look at minor rules questions if they are supposed to be looking at deep gameplay design questions.
Anyway, this is getting off the subject of this thread. |
The DT has been 'introduced'
http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8877 |
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