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Hittite (20) list question
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 25, 2023 9:05 pm    Sujet du message: Hittite (20) list question Répondre en citant
Hittite Light Chariots are available as

2-8 "(before 1380BC)"

After 1380BC you can ..

"Replace some Hittite Chariots" (0-Cool

Should this be "replace all Hittite Chariots" after 1380BC ... as the wording in the initial section for LCh suggests they are only available until 1380BC?

Or is the initial description incorrect, and there should be no date restriction on taking Light Chariots in a Hittite army, only a date when you can change some for HCh ?

(This maybe a question for what is written in the French army list!?)
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 27, 2023 12:47 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I had always thought it was replace some. But now i note the years are mutually exclusive. The year makes the question moot.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 03, 2023 10:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The wording indicates the first suggestion, but I have a sneaky suspicion that the intention is the second. Because the idea that a Hittite army would have a minimum of zero chariots seems a bit daft to me.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 03, 2023 10:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In french "remplacer une partie des chars 0-8".

In french version, there's no (before 1380bc) in light chariot line.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 03, 2023 10:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
In french "remplacer une partie des chars 0-8".

In french version, there's no (before 1380bc) in light chariot line.


Maybe it got carried over from the 3rd edition text, similar to the issue with Feudal French Knights before 1085.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 04, 2023 8:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.

I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 04, 2023 9:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
In french "remplacer une partie des chars 0-8".

In french version, there's no (before 1380bc) in light chariot line.


Aaah! For the next FAQ then… 
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 12:10 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.

I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots.


high probability it was the chariot runner i think is current academic theory.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 5:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
KevinD a écrit:
Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.

I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots.


high probability it was the chariot runner i think is current academic theory.


Probably more like the current amateur wargamer theory. Academia is less concerned about trying to shoehorn things into wargame "light" and "heavy" classifications, but ancients games haven't gotten past the old WRG fixation where if the chariot had more than 2 crew, it had to be heavy.

Also, "chariot runner hitching a ride" only works if you actually have a concrete definition of what a chariot runner is, and most people don't.
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 10:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Wouldn't this be best moved to the "Army List" subforum?
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 7:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Jhykronos a écrit:
Hazelbark a écrit:
KevinD a écrit:
Interesting. Thanks for listing this, lionelrus.

I think this is better as I don’t really think the three man Hittite chariots was necessarily standard so it allows for them to be fielded as lighter chariots.


high probability it was the chariot runner i think is current academic theory.


Probably more like the current amateur wargamer theory. Academia is less concerned about trying to shoehorn things into wargame "light" and "heavy" classifications, but ancients games haven't gotten past the old WRG fixation where if the chariot had more than 2 crew, it had to be heavy.

Also, "chariot runner hitching a ride" only works if you actually have a concrete definition of what a chariot runner is, and most people don't.


So ignoring light versus heavy. There are academics who argue the chariot runner. Also they define the chariot runner a good bit. I heard this i think on an ancient Mesopotamia podcast between academics. The argument is i think influenced by records not theory. As a side note we have more written words of the "biblical Mesopotamia area" than we do of classical Greece and maybe Rome according to scholars.

The argument is the 3rd man does several support roles to the chariot including replacing wounded horses and being johnny on the sport for general problem support. How much of a combatant is more open. This is maybe characterized as proto-squire or logistics support.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 11:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Dan, interesting!

I do agree it should move to the Army List sub forum.
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Jhykronos
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 7:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
So ignoring light versus heavy. There are academics who argue the chariot runner. Also they define the chariot runner a good bit.


I'm aware of the Tallis and Stillman's use of the term in Armies of the Ancient Near East, and of Robert Drews unique interpretation of it in his own book. Outside of that, if chariot runners were a thing we had a solid grasp on, you would think they might actually appear in someone's army lists anymore. But maybe that's more of a problem on the wargaming side.

Citation:
I heard this i think on an ancient Mesopotamia podcast between academics. The argument is i think influenced by records not theory.


Then you probably have better sources than I do for it... the only place I ever hear that one is by list authors who don't want the Hittites to have 3-man chariots because they reject the idea of shock chariots (not certain what one has to do with the other, but then we are still fixated on WRG definitions for some reason). And nobody ever wants to cite where they get the idea from.

Citation:
As a side note we have more written words of the "biblical Mesopotamia area" than we do of classical Greece and maybe Rome according to scholars.


We might, but the Greek and Roman sources are a lot more convenient for gaming purposes, as they will occasionally give you an OOB and a detailed battle narrative.

Citation:
The argument is the 3rd man does several support roles to the chariot including replacing wounded horses and being johnny on the sport for general problem support. How much of a combatant is more open. This is maybe characterized as proto-squire or logistics support.


I do remember Nigel Tallis once pointing out that the "third rider" was not necessarily a new development at all... earlier pre-Hurrian style chariots were often crewed by 3. And certainly plenty of other states after the Hittite Empire went to the 3-crew vehicles. It had to start somewhere... if not Hatti or Ugarit, then where?

But again, the only reason we even care is because of that old WRG definition. I'd say whether the third rider is a permanent crewman or a temporarily mounted infantryman doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the tactical usage of the Hittite chariots anyway.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 7:20 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
“I'd say whether the third rider is a permanent crewman or a temporarily mounted infantryman doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the tactical usage of the Hittite chariots anyway.â€

I agree.

I think a lot of it comes down to how you interpret Kadesh - do you want the Hittite chariots to be radically different in battlefield role from the Egyptian style (or Maryanne style) chariots - as perhaps heavy shock chariots - or were they fundamentally similar to the Egyptian ones?
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 1:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Jhykronos a écrit:


But again, the only reason we even care is because of that old WRG definition. I'd say whether the third rider is a permanent crewman or a temporarily mounted infantryman doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the tactical usage of the Hittite chariots anyway.


The academic world cares about this because they do research that has purposes unrelated to gaming. Shocking I know.

Nearly every gaming assumption and its evolution is influenced in part by academic developments. Well and Hollywood-esqe fevered imaginations.

I concur the existence of the runner is a separate issue from whether you think the Chariot is more shock or more missile platform or more transport. I think that is also complicated by the chariot evolution of quite a few cultures and years and in comparison, to rest of the formed military units of that point in time.
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