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Light Infantry Interpenetration
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Ballista
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018
Messages: 115
MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 6:45 am    Sujet du message: Light Infantry Interpenetration Répondre en citant
A unit of light infantry evades -


There is a group of friendly units within one UD directly to its rear which it can interpenetrate side to side but the group is over 4UD wide so it would not be able to get its front edge partially clear on the other side of the group

So the question is

Does the light infantry interpenetrate the friendly units as far as possible then placed in middle of group, breaking it up ? as per P39 which talks about interpenetrating units and adjusting positions

OR

Does the light infantry slide to one side, treating the friendly group of units as per p48 Evade blocked by an obstacle and move down front/rear of the group ?


TIA
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Neep
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Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 3:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
A friendly unit which the evaders cannot interpenetrate (because they have run out of movement to reach past) is an obstacle. The LI must wheel or slide to avoid. If they cannot, then they cannot make the move.

The rules appear to allow LI to wheel and slide (or even turn when not evading) while moving through friends.
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Ballista
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 05, 2023 10:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Given interpenetration takes place unit by unit, why wouldn't P39 right hand column third bullet poiint come into play

And I don't think they become an obstacle- there is an argument on here about terrain being an obstacle for troops who have reduced movement in it - basically it isn't an obstacle just because of this hence no slide/wheel to avoid it.
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 12:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
when Evading, page 48 clearly lists friends you cannot interpenetrate as an, unfortunately overloaded term, obstacle that you maneuver around.

In non-evade situations, I'm not sure that it is done unit by unit. The preamble talks about friends in the plural. If you can't move (partially) through all of them, then perhaps you can't move through any of them. Also, not sure that if LI cannot find room beyond the last interpenetrated friend per bullet 1, then the friends are pushed per bullet 3, or if instead the interpenetration is simply not allowed.

We must await better informed comments.
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Ballista
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 2:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes see what better informed minds have to say about this -

Also P39 the bullet points must be read in conjunction with first paragraph which outlines how interpenetration takes place.

The bullet points outline what happens when interpenetration can't/doesn't meet these criteria.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 4:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
3rd bullet.

If I understand your concern. You are wondering is a group of units somehow prevent a unit from breaking them apart.

This should be viewed as a unit-by-unit situation unless i am forgetting something.
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Ballista
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 6:20 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So the LI in this example could say interpenetrate two of the units in the group but can't get partially through a third unit so would end up between the second and third units, resulting in the group being broken apart ?

It would look something like this based upon the third bullet point on P39


Beginning LI XXXX

After evade/interpenetration XXLIXX OR XLIXX
X

Where X units are facing up and LI is facing right ?


Dernière édition par Ballista le Lun Fév 06, 2023 11:57 am; édité 1 fois
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KevinD
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Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 7:12 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I didn’t think LI are allowed to displace units to make room for themselves when interpenetrating. They can advance if they partially reach the other side of a unit, otherwise they don’t make the interpretation.
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Ballista
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 7:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
P39 right hand column sets out procedure

Paragraph before bullet points says how interpenetration happens

The bullet points set out what happens if unit cannot fully move through a unit

The third bullet point would seem to cover all other circumstances, as it says.

So I can't see any reason why LI can't adjust units position because they don't at least get their front edge clear of the unit they are interpenetrating.
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Neep
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Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 4:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think the question is do you apply bullet 1 then bullet 2 then bullet 3 on page 39, or does only one apply?

In other words, does "In all other cases" mean "if the penetrating unit is not LI and the penetrated units are not heavy artillery, WWg, or units behind fortifications or obstacles" or does is mean "if bullet 1 and 2 do not resolve the situation"?

Regardless, I don't think it matters to Evasion, because if the full evade move leaves the LI short of a partial ipass through, then it's a friend it cannot interpenetrate, and so you must maneuver to avoid it.
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Zoltan
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Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 7:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Ballista - the rules provide a clear, simple mechanism to deal with the LI evade in the scenario you have posed here. Slide to the side and run along the front/back of the long line of friendly units. It's not edifying to create a "discussion thread" about an unnecessary, abstruse alternative. Sadly, this forum is increasingly losing the interest of experienced ADLG players due to a rash of, ahem, inane, blue-moon "questions".

My general approach is:
1. If there's a clear solution available in the rules - just use it,
2. Talk the topic through with your close circle of playing friends - reach a local consensus,
3. Correspond with experienced players on different continents to obtain their view,
4. If still unresolved, and it looks like something that will materially affect the game play all round the known world - ask a question here.

Wink
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Neep
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 9:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OH MY GOD! people are asking QUESTIONS about RULES in the Rules question V4 folder!! Stop bothering the sheep and man the barricades!!!
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 10:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ballista a écrit:
P39 right hand column sets out procedure

Paragraph before bullet points says how interpenetration happens

The bullet points set out what happens if unit cannot fully move through a unit

The third bullet point would seem to cover all other circumstances, as it says.

So I can't see any reason why LI can't adjust units position because they don't at least get their front edge clear of the unit they are interpenetrating.


Play it this way.
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Ballista
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Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018
Messages: 115
MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 06, 2023 11:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
@Ballista - the rules provide a clear, simple mechanism to deal with the LI evade in the scenario you have posed here. Slide to the side and run along the front/back of the long line of friendly units. It's not edifying to create a "discussion thread" about an unnecessary, abstruse alternative. Sadly, this forum is increasingly losing the interest of experienced ADLG players due to a rash of, ahem, inane, blue-moon "questions".

My general approach is:
1. If there's a clear solution available in the rules - just use it,
2. Talk the topic through with your close circle of playing friends - reach a local consensus,
3. Correspond with experienced players on different continents to obtain their view,
4. If still unresolved, and it looks like something that will materially affect the game play all round the known world - ask a question here.

Wink


The reason the question is here is that in the past six months I have had it ruled both ways in separate tournaments.
Hence the question as to which is the more correct way for such a move to be undertaken within the framework and intent of the rules.

Despite how inconvenient it might seem.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 1:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ballista a écrit:


The reason the question is here is that in the past six months I have had it ruled both ways in separate tournaments.
Hence the question as to which is the more correct way for such a move to be undertaken within the framework and intent of the rules.


That is annoying. Which tournaments?

There is a big challenge in umpiring because to do it right takes time and it is easy to be a gun slinger, but shooting first isn't always right. I umpired the worlds and due to language it was much easier to just get everyone with their own rules and point to the line how i ruled. It is kind of fun the rule book is a rosetta stone into different languages.

Now layer on all that some people play a rule because that is how their club honestly plays it and an umpire comes from the club, then you get the ruling. It's annoying buy life.
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