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Light Infantry Interpenetration
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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DarkBlack
Barbare


Inscrit le: 20 Mar 2020
Messages: 24
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 1:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ballista a écrit:
Given interpenetration takes place unit by unit, why wouldn't P39 right hand column third bullet poiint come into play

The third bullet starts with "In other cases"; which means that the third bullet does not apply to the above two bullets (i.e. the third bullet does not apply to this question at all).
Therefore the paragraph at the end of the section "Adjusting Positions" would apply; as there is not enough room to adjust the position of the LI.
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Ballista
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018
Messages: 115
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 5:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So your interpretation is that ".. in all other cases..." are those situations not involving units named in the first two bullet points.

And if units named in the first two bullet points can't do as described therein then the interpenetration is not allowed.

That was mine until the interpretation outlined here.
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Ballista
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 9:47 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Ballista a écrit:


The reason the question is here is that in the past six months I have had it ruled both ways in separate tournaments.
Hence the question as to which is the more correct way for such a move to be undertaken within the framework and intent of the rules.


That is annoying. Which tournaments?

There is a big challenge in umpiring because to do it right takes time and it is easy to be a gun slinger, but shooting first isn't always right. I umpired the worlds and due to language it was much easier to just get everyone with their own rules and point to the line how i ruled. It is kind of fun the rule book is a rosetta stone into different languages.

Now layer on all that some people play a rule because that is how their club honestly plays it and an umpire comes from the club, then you get the ruling. It's annoying buy life.


Twice last year, both times in Sydney Australia.
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Neep
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 124
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 8:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There is an old discussion (Dec. 2021) called, oddly enough, "Interpenetration" that involved members of the rules committee.
If I've understood correctly:
Light units always advance (bullet 1) and never back or push other units (bullet 3). If there is not enough room, then the interprenetration cannot take place.
Heavy units stop at the edge of a unit they cannot interpenetrate and back or push any units they have already passed through.

I think it's a little difficult to glean either of these points from the text.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 08, 2023 12:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am not sure there is a problem with the text - let me try to explain how I see "Adjusting positions" (P39) working out:-

"During interpenetration, the movement allowance of the unit passing through friends must allow it to at least partially reach the other side of those friends. If the unit passed through cannot be fully crossed the positions of the units are adjusted in the following way"
    So the interpenetrating unit must attempt to pass through entirely, and adjusting units only occurs where the unit cannot completely exit the other side.

Then,
  • "If the interpenetrating unit is LI . . ." Adjust the LI
  • or "If the target (interpenetrated) unit is Artillery, WWG, behind defences . . . " Adjust the interpenetrating unit (including LI)
  • Otherwise - in all other cases ie not LI, and not a unit passing through artillery etc - "the crossed (Interpenetrated) unit is moved back or pushed the minimum necessary to make room for the crossing unit."
  • Finally "If the movement distance is too short to cross the unit at least partially, or if there is not enough space to adjust the positions of the units involved, the interpenetration is not allowed.
So there are two scenarios here

  1. If the LI are trying to make a normal move sideways through a group of units, and they do not have sufficient movement to clear the opposite edge of the final unit, at least partially, then they may not interpenetrate.
  2. In the original question, LI are trying to evade sideways though a group of units. They cannot interpenetrate through to the other side of these units, so this represents "friendly units that it cannot interpenetrate" (P48). So in this case the evaders may slide then wheel to avoid the "obstacle".
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 08, 2023 8:13 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
I am not sure there is a problem with the text - let me try to explain how I see "Adjusting positions" (P39) working out:-

So there are two scenarios here

  1. If the LI are trying to make a normal move sideways through a group of units, and they do not have sufficient movement to clear the opposite edge of the final unit, at least partially, then they may not interpenetrate.
  2. In the original question, LI are trying to evade sideways though a group of units. They cannot interpenetrate through to the other side of these units, so this represents "friendly units that it cannot interpenetrate" (P48). So in this case the evaders may slide then wheel to avoid the "obstacle".


That's exactly how I see it too; there's no problem here. Don't start exiting the far side? No interpenetration - so slide, and get on with the game!
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Ballista
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018
Messages: 115
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 08, 2023 9:48 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
Ramses II a écrit:
I am not sure there is a problem with the text - let me try to explain how I see "Adjusting positions" (P39) working out:-

So there are two scenarios here

  1. If the LI are trying to make a normal move sideways through a group of units, and they do not have sufficient movement to clear the opposite edge of the final unit, at least partially, then they may not interpenetrate.
  2. In the original question, LI are trying to evade sideways though a group of units. They cannot interpenetrate through to the other side of these units, so this represents "friendly units that it cannot interpenetrate" (P48). So in this case the evaders may slide then wheel to avoid the "obstacle".


That's exactly how I see it too; there's no problem here. Don't start exiting the far side? No interpenetration - so slide, and get on with the game!


And mine until the above example occurred. At least it is here in writing to quote as I expect to come up against the same person again this year.
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