Art De La Guerre
Bienvenue sur le forum de discussion de la règle de jeu l'Art De La Guerre
 
FAQFAQ RechercherRechercher Liste des MembresListe des Membres Groupes d'utilisateursGroupes d'utilisateurs S'enregistrerS'enregistrer
ProfilProfil Se connecter pour vérifier ses messages privésSe connecter pour vérifier ses messages privés ConnexionConnexion
Dismounting to face Elephants
Page 1 sur 2 Aller à la page 1, 2  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Auteur Message
Mark G Fry
Signifer


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 319
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 11:13 am    Sujet du message: Dismounting to face Elephants Répondre en citant
This is a rather mischievous question (I admit that), but are there any historical instances of mounted troops dismounting to fight Elephants?

I suspect that if there are, they relate to Byzantines fighting Sassanid Elephants, but I have searched and can find nothing firm or substantive.
We do have evidence (as best it can be described as such) of mounted Cavalry fighting Elephants - such as the Companions at the Battle of Hydaspes, but they were closely supported by the Hypaspists & Agrianian etc. The Sassanids fighting Hephthalite Hun Elephants relied on mounted horse archery, light infantry with naphtha bombs and light artillery (again using naphtha) but they don't appear to have dismounted.

I totally understand that this is a rules mechanism to allow for a reasonable game to be played - so I am not suggesting a change - but it came up in a recent conversation during a game and neither myself or my opponent had an answer.

NB: dismounting to fight troops behind stakes or field fortifications or in War Wagons is well document.

Thanks
Mark
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Longtooth
Signifer


Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014
Messages: 349
Localisation: Oxford
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 2:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Although there may be no recorded instances of cavalry dismounting to fight elephants, there are probably very few instances of European knights fighting elephants. Who is to say what would happen if these two opponents ever met in 'real life'?

Jesse
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mark G Fry
Signifer


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 319
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 3:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Longtooth a écrit:
Although there may be no recorded instances of cavalry dismounting to fight elephants, there are probably very few instances of European knights fighting elephants. Who is to say what would happen if these two opponents ever met in 'real life'?

Jesse


Very true ... but I am interested in whether there is an actual historic president for dismounting verses elephants. This (again) seems to be a standard approach across most wargames rules, probably with a DB genetic heritage. I'm not suggesting the practice should stop, as it is a rules mechanism that works to enable a sensible game, but I am curious.

I suspect, but cannot prove it or remember the exact historical source, that the Byzantines dismounted some cavalry to face Sassanid Elephants.
But I might be wrong.

In some sets of rules you can also dismount cavalry if faced with camels.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 8:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It is an interesting historical question. I think you need to broaden it to include the conflicts in south asia.
Timur, Moghuls and such are other high suspects. There are indian manuals from i thin 16th century that teach lancers how to fight elephants while mounted.
I also have a distance memory of a successor example, but i can't place it.

A lot of games are received wisdom. Cataphracts in some rules are specialist anti-foot, but to most period historians appear to be more heavily armoured normal mounted.

The elephant in many rules is an overly anti-mounted troop, so rules systems tend to allow dismounting to mitigate the disproportionate effect of rock, scissors, paper. Indeed many adlg gamers go through a phase that the Elephant is the cat's pajamas, but that expereince evolves.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 8:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mongols dismounted to fight Burmese. I think Marco Polo records this.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 07, 2023 11:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Kevin has it.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Travels_of_Marco_Polo/Book_2/Chapter_52

"After the King of Mien had halted long enough to refresh his troops, he resumed his march, and came to the Plain of Vochan, where the Tartars were already in order of battle. And when the king's army had arrived in the plain, and was within a mile of the enemy, he caused all the castles that were on the elephants to be ordered for battle, and the fighting-men to take up their posts on them, and he arrayed his horse and his foot with all skill, like a wise king as he was. And when he had completed all his arrangements he began to advance to engage the enemy. The Tartars, seeing the foe advance, showed no dismay, but came on likewise with good order and discipline to meet them. And when they were near and nought remained but to begin the fight, the horses of the Tartars took such fright at the sight of the elephants that they could not be got to face the foe, but always swerved and turned back; whilst all the time the king and his forces, and all his elephants, continued to advance upon them.[2]

And when the Tartars perceived how the case stood, they were in great wrath, and wist not what to say or do; for well enough they saw that unless they could get their horses to advance, all would be lost. But their Captain acted like a wise leader who had considered everything beforehand. He immediately gave orders that every man should dismount and tie his horse to the trees of the forest that stood hard by, and that then they should take to their bows, a weapon that they know how to handle better than any troops in the world. They did as he bade them, and plied their bows stoutly, shooting so many shafts at the advancing elephants that in a short space they had wounded or slain the greater part of them as well as of the men they carried. The enemy also shot at the Tartars, but the Tartars had the better weapons, and were the better archers to boot."
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mark G Fry
Signifer


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 319
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 08, 2023 5:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That sounds good enough for me Ethan - thanks Very Happy
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 08, 2023 6:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There have been two different philosophies about dismounting in various ancients rules. One (used by an large in ADLG it seems) is situational, where all mounted troops can dismount if faced with certain situations - such as attacking or defending fortifications, facing war wagons or elephants etc. The other (used sometimes in ADLG lists) is to note specific instances of dismounting and allow such armies to dismount Nader pretty much any circumstances.

To get back to the example above, of Mongols dismounting to face Burmese elephants, is this an example that pretty much all armies should be permitted to dismount when faced by Mongols or that Mongols should be allowed to dismount regardless of situation (such as their opponent’s troop types)?
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1464
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 08, 2023 6:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
There have been two different philosophies about dismounting in various ancients rules. One (used by an large in ADLG it seems) is situational, where all mounted troops can dismount if faced with certain situations - such as attacking or defending fortifications, facing war wagons or elephants etc. The other (used sometimes in ADLG lists) is to note specific instances of dismounting and allow such armies to dismount Nader pretty much any circumstances.

To get back to the example above, of Mongols dismounting to face Burmese elephants, is this an example that pretty much all armies should be permitted to dismount when faced by Mongols or that Mongols should be allowed to dismount regardless of situation (such as their opponent’s troop types)?


The example literally says the Tatars only dismounted because they realised that would otherwise be screwed, and that even so it still needed a smart individual officer to work this out on the fly and order them to do so.

I'm not sure I could imagine a clearer historical record to justify "situational" (as opposed to "get off your horses any time you want guys, we do this stuff as a matter of routine against all and sundry") dismounting ?
_________________
www.madaxeman.com
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé Visiter le site web de l'utilisateur
KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 08, 2023 11:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
True, but you have other instances of Mongols dismounting. Bela Noyen seems to have dismounted the Bahadur Tumen to scale the ridge on Jalal ad Din’s left at the Indus. The Mongols under Muqali are recorded as dismounting at Yehuling/Huan'erzui to attack the Jin center under Wanyan Chengyu.

The Jurchen had dismounted their cavalry in the Shanxi campaigns earlier in the dynasty. Similarly, Jalal ad Din also dismounted his Khwarizmian horse archers at his famous victory at Parwan. Perhaps armies Mongols and facing Mongols should be allowed to dismount. 😀

It seems that all these armies, Mongols, Jin and Khwarizmians (and presumably many others) dismounted their cavalry as the situation called for.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mark G Fry
Signifer


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 319
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 09, 2023 12:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The Tibetans famously dismount their Cataphracts, making them all but invulnerable to mounted archery, when fighting the T'ang Chinese.

Having the option for some troops to have dismounted alternatives in the lists seems to work quite well.

Are you suggesting that certain armies (Mongols specifically) should be allowed a dismount in all situations special rule?
I'd suggest if you went that route it would need to be a paid for option. As it gives them a considerable advantage.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 09, 2023 8:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I do think (looking down the road quite a way) that some armies be generally permitted to dismount their cavalry. Of the armies that currently can’t, I think Mongols and Khwarizmians are near the top of the list for this. (I think there is also some solid historical evidence for Buyid Ghulams dismounting in civil wars. But the more you look into specific historical armies with a decent paper trail, the more you see instances of this occurring.) Interestingly, if Mongols were allowed this then perhaps the historical justification for dismounting to face enemy elephants could be removed. (Are there other known instances of armies dismounting to fighting elephants where the army did not also dismount on other occasions?)

Another option (again looking quite far into the future) might be to simply relook at the rules on mounted troops operating in rough or difficult terrain. Historically, many many instances of cavalry dismounting were to operate in terrain that was unsuitable for mounted warfare (mountains, steep hillside, plantations and orchards, jungles, attacking or defending fortifications, etc.). Perhaps the rules on mounted troops ought to contemplate that they would generally dismount as necessary to operate in such terrain and their factors and abilities adjusted to contemplate this rather than having separate dismounted units with their own factors and capabilities as in the current rules. Thus maybe they would lose abilities like Impact, Furious Charge and bonuses against MI or LMI, but retain a factor of (about) +1 in rough and 0 or -1 in difficult to represent their ability to fight dismounted as necessary, maybe make moving in such terrain a difficult move for all mounted to reflect the difficulty of commanders implementing this and troops dismounting and coordinating care for their horses, but this would obviate the need to formally dismount them in the game and restrict this ability to those armies where this was recorded. (While there are some famous incidents of mounted troops refusing to fight dismounted, there are many others (far beyond what the army lists record) where they did so when the tactical situation called for it.) Obviously this would need to be tested and ultimately it might not found to be as satisfactory as the current method. (And the current method of dismounting might be more visually satisfying as you get to depict them on foot instead of having mounted bases slogging through inappropriate terrain.)
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 10, 2023 2:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Letting mounted troops dismount as necesary will ahve players turning troops into Dragoons and you will just spin more ahistorical.

I mean Knights at Nicopolis dismounted to get throught the field works to fight the azabs.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 499
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 10, 2023 3:58 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes, so rather than formally dismounting the mounted units, perhaps the rules should assume that they will often dismount as the situation requires and base their combat ability in these situations more or less as if they had dismounted.

But of course not all armies or troops seemed to be willing to do this. But it does seem far more widespread than the rules currently allow for. Maybe a bad die roll means they didn’t dismount when they should have…
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 10, 2023 3:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Or a good die roll with existing rules and no changes mean they managed it right?

Easy-peasy no need to change.

There is a real question in evrey rules of how much to subsume and how much to show. The classic sterotype is the WW II armor fan who wants angle of shell approach, angle of armor deflection, shell type and explosive, etc and so forth all on display.

Not everything needs to be an explicit process that is visible.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
  
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Page 1 sur 2 Aller à la page 1, 2  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet Toutes les heures sont au format GMT

 
Sauter vers:  
Vous ne pouvez pas poster de nouveaux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas éditer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas supprimer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas voter dans les sondages de ce forum