KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 500
Localisation: Texas
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 Posté le: Sam Sep 23, 2023 8:19 pm Sujet du message: Riabauds and Welsh Knifemen |
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My understanding is that these generally followed along behind the knights and finished off the wounded but generally did not engage against active opponents. I assumed they’d flee any serious opponent like LI.
If this is correct, would some sort of LI (perhaps a new type with no ranged weapon or just Mediocre so their shooting and melee would suck) in overlap Simple support of knights depict this better than levies or MI? They could move with and follow along with the knights and moving into empty overlap positions might represent them knifing wounded opponents, etc. Using them to catch longbow arrows or crossbow bolts might not be historical though…
This might apply to list 237 (HY War French) or 236 (HY War English.)
EDIT - Ancient German or early Scottish infantry riding double seemed to have been more well equipped and formidable fighters so should remain some sort of decent LI Jav I’d say… |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1468
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Sam Sep 23, 2023 9:47 pm Sujet du message: |
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| KevinD a écrit: | My understanding is that these generally followed along behind the knights and finished off the wounded but generally did not engage against active opponents. I assumed they’d flee any serious opponent like LI.
If this is correct, would some sort of LI (perhaps a new type with no ranged weapon or just Mediocre so their shooting and melee would suck) in overlap Simple support of knights depict this better than levies or MI? They could move with and follow along with the knights and moving into empty overlap positions might represent them knifing wounded opponents, etc. Using them to catch longbow arrows or crossbow bolts might not be historical though…
This might apply to list 237 (HY War French) or 236 (HY War English.)
EDIT - Ancient German or early Scottish infantry riding double seemed to have been more well equipped and formidable fighters so should remain some sort of decent LI Jav I’d say… |
Already included in the Kn units basic factors against historical opponents I'd imagine.
German horsemen are graded Elite already, so that's already covered by baking them into the units basic factor too.
The last "new" troop types added to ADLG were I believe Sword/Bow and Sword/Longbow, to better represent the rather mainstream types of Janissaries and 100YW Longbowmen, and Impact Spear for Almughavars.
I think you may therefore have a long wait lobbying for a whole new troop type to be created who's only ability on-table is that they can go into an overlap position to support Mounted Knights (which existing Light Infantry in those lists can also do of course, as well as much more besides), and who would appear in only two armies out of 300.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1537
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| Posté le: Dim Sep 24, 2023 1:31 pm Sujet du message: |
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| The juice is not worth the squeeze as they say. |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 325
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Dim Sep 24, 2023 6:13 pm Sujet du message: |
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| KevinD a écrit: | My understanding is that these generally followed along behind the knights and finished off the wounded but generally did not engage against active opponents. I assumed they’d flee any serious opponent like LI.
If this is correct, would some sort of LI (perhaps a new type with no ranged weapon or just Mediocre so their shooting and melee would suck) in overlap Simple support of knights depict this better than levies or MI? They could move with and follow along with the knights and moving into empty overlap positions might represent them knifing wounded opponents, etc. Using them to catch longbow arrows or crossbow bolts might not be historical though…
This might apply to list 237 (HY War French) or 236 (HY War English.)
EDIT - Ancient German or early Scottish infantry riding double seemed to have been more well equipped and formidable fighters so should remain some sort of decent LI Jav I’d say… |
Riabauds was a general term for assorted poor quality infantry, often ex-mercenaries etc. with a wide variety of weapons (spears, darts, swords, long daggers, coutels, axes etc.) and assorted protection (helmets and shields/bucklers, and whatever else they could scavenge from the battlefield) that followed pretty much every HYW armies, mostly fighting for loot. MF swordsmen, mediocre seems to me to actually be a pretty good classification for them, probably actually a bit on the generous side.
Welsh knife-men is another one of those 'infamous' wargames legend units (propagated by the various WRG lists and books), as (unlike the Riabauds) they were not knows as such by their contemporaries.
Welsh infantry in English armies during the earlier HYW period generally fought either as archers (standard Longbow) or as spearmen (so MF spear would be ideal) or as shield-less javelin armed infantry also armed with a long knife (used to slit the throats of disadvantaged or wounded enemy knights according to various contemporary sources such as Fossiart).
So in fact Javelinmen would be the ideal existing troop types to depict your Welsh 'knife-men' or LF javelin  and they already appear as such in the contemporary Welsh list for the period as well.
As both types move at 3UDs, as do Knights, there is no issue with them keeping up with their better off counterparts - although I suspect that historically the knights would not have been that keen on having them anywhere near them - especially to their backs - regardless of which side they were supposed to have been fighting on 
The requirement to brigade Riabauds with mounted knights is possible if the Welsh are classified as LF javelin, but I am unaware of any historical instances of mounted or dismounted HYW knights/men-at-arms fighting in a mixed formation with such troop types. I'd suggest that the very nature of both troop types would mean that their 'natural' position on the battlefield is towards the rear and well away from any serious fighting, at least until it is clear which side was winning.
Cheers
Mark |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1468
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Dim Sep 24, 2023 8:05 pm Sujet du message: |
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There is of course also the issue that these guys are supposed to have killed enemy troops who were already “hors de combat†at the time.Â
 I’m pretty sure that in almost any ancients ruleset of the past 30+ years, troops who are in such a parlous state as to be stabbable (sic) by knife wielding otherwise-non-combatants are, in game terms at least, already removed from play.Â
 A troop type that only kills troops who are already treated as “dead†by the rule system feels somewhat unnecessarily bottom-up…Â
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