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Art De La Guerre
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Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Question sur la règle V4
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 325
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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 Posté le: Mer Nov 15, 2023 1:55 pm Sujet du message: Discovering an Ambush |
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In a game at the Warfare competition at the weekend, a situation occurred where, by deft positioning, a single unit of enemy cavalry revealed an ambush on the edge of a Plantation, but in so doing made it extremely difficult (impossible) for the other units within the Ambush to actually be deployed alongside the Ambush marker (side-by-side) in a legal formation.
This was because the discovering unit was so positioned (at an angle in relation to the terrain and the ambush marker) as to make it impossible for any of the other units within the ambush to then be deployed side-by-side next to the unit that was positioned upon the Ambush marker as they each fell foul of the rules wording that stated that they could not be placed nearer to any enemy unit & that (by default) also included the enemy unit discovering the Ambush.
So in effect the 'discovering' enemy cavalry unit had stopped at 1 UD from the marker on the edge of the terrain, but was nearer to the terrain edge than 1 UD.
Personally, I think this is a 'harsh' rule.
As it means that by approaching an ambush marker at an angle, the 'discovering' unit can in effect negate and disrupt the ambush (or even make it illegal).
In reality those other troops might have already been in the position in Ambush where they were side-by-side alongside the Ambush marker.
NB: I did tried to represent this with letter, but it is impossible -as I'd need to angle the letters  |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Nov 15, 2023 3:02 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Was the ambush unreliable? Otherwise it can be deployed whenever it wants whilst the enemy are moving within 4UD. Therefore a player can simply pick his time when exactly the right amount of space is available and deploy? |
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Brave Coeur
Tribun
Inscrit le: 06 Oct 2011
Messages: 773
Localisation: Strasbourg/Paris
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| Posté le: Mer Nov 15, 2023 6:28 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hello 2 points :
1. The rules state that no troops in ambush can be deploy closer to 1 UD from enemy troops. With the other rule statement that discovering unit has to stop at 1UD from the occupied enemy's ambush, most of normal cases are solved by these 2 points of rules.
2. But of course, nasty/clever players know how to close an ambush in order to set the mess within enemy revealved troops up to cancel it. So it is the responsibility of the player setting the ambush to foreseen (or not) these outcomes.
It could be a harsh rule.
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 325
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Nov 15, 2023 8:22 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Brave Coeur a écrit: | Hello 2 points :
1. The rules state that no troops in ambush can be deploy closer to 1 UD from enemy troops. With the other rule statement that discovering unit has to stop at 1UD from the occupied enemy's ambush, most of normal cases are solved by these 2 points of rules.
2. But of course, nasty/clever players know how to close an ambush in order to set the mess within enemy revealved troops up to cancel it. So it is the responsibility of the player setting the ambush to foreseen (or not) these outcomes.
It could be a harsh rule. |
My opponent was not nasty (in fact he is a very likable chap  ) he is just very clever and knows the rules like the back of his hand, and the 'Warfare' competition is an exceptionally hard fought (but highly enjoyable) event. We were playing in the 28mm competition and there were 18 of us, whilst there were 28 players in the 15mm event - a UK record I believe.
By approaching my Ambush marker at a 45 degree angle and stopping when his inside front corner was at 1UD from it, which resulted in his unit being at 1UD of the Ambush marker but under 1UD from the edge of the terrain alongside the Ambush marker (& also being outside of the ZoC generated by the unit on the Ambush marker), he in effect not only stopped the rest of my ambush deploying in such a way that I'd have ZoC'd him when it deployed, but also stopped his unit having to roll to evade out of the ZoC if necessary.
So I have learnt a valuable lesson, which is that I'll now leave a 1UD gap on both side of my Ambush markers to allow other units in ambush to deploy.
So by using this particular tactic I had to deploy the units in ambush in a manner that was disadvantageous to my plan.
I had not wanted to reveal my Ambush myself, earlier Mike, ahead of it being discovered by my opponents unit, as its role was primarily to spring out of ambush, trap and attack the 'discovering' enemy units. Also, by coming in along the front of the terrain, he caught me by surprise - so to speak.
So once the Ambush was sprung I was able to move the troops that had been in Ambush out to ZoC the enemy unit (which was a MC lance, 1/2 bow unit, so had it been forced to evade it would have only gone 3UDs and the MF I had in ambush might well have caught it in the rear) but that allowed my opponent to bring up his other cavalry in support of it in his next turn and lance & 1/2 bow cavalry (even Medium Cavalry) are formidable against MF in the open.
In this case a single word 'any' rather than 'any other' can make a significant difference.
NB: I came 8th out of 18 players - so I cannot complain (well not much anyway).
Cheers
Mark |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4709
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Jeu Nov 16, 2023 7:57 am Sujet du message: |
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Did the umpire solve the problem?
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Jeu Nov 16, 2023 8:27 am Sujet du message: |
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| lionelrus a écrit: | | Did the umpire solve the problem? |
Mark's point reads like a requested future amendment, not a point for an umpire or clarification..
Ps I am not personally convinced of the need. It can be mitigated by deploying when enemy move within 4ud, especially as that has been clarified as being at any moment, not just at exactly the point that they cross the 4UD. Furthermore ambushes would be set based on the anticipated direction of approach. Effectiveness being reduced by an unexpected approach direction might seem reasonable.
Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Ven Nov 17, 2023 9:24 am; édité 2 fois |
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Mark G Fry
Signifer
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 325
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Jeu Nov 16, 2023 10:15 am Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | | lionelrus a écrit: | | Did the umpire solve the problem? |
Mark's point reads like a requested future amendment, not a point for an umpire or clarification..
Ps I am not personally convinced of the need. It can be mitigated by deploying when enemy move within 4ud. Furthermore ambushes would be set based on the anticipated direction of approach. Effectiveness being reduced by an unexpected approach direction might seem reasonable. |
You are correct Mike - the rules are very clear - so there was no dispute & no need for an umpire.
My 'canny' opponent had played the rules to the best of his advantage & fair on him. I'll now be doing the same from now on 
I can see the point about deploying my own Ambush early Mike, but in this instance the enemy was actually at almost 6UDs away when he moved to 'trigger' the Ambush (a slide of 1UD & a move of 4UDs took him to 1UD in front of the Ambush marker) and it was off at a 45 degree angle to the terrain & the Ambush. But as you say, next time I'll at least have a think (seriously) about taking my own troops out of Ambush voluntarily earlier.
NB: I might try & learn how to post images to the Forum so as to illustrate this particular incident - as when you see the angle of approach taken by the enemy MC it was actually very hard to predict.
I suppose my 'concern' is that with the maximum size of terrain pieces and the numbers of units it is possible to place in an Ambush, this rule (which I must admit I was not aware of in all my previous games - sloppy play on my part) means that we will see units being potentially forced to be redeployed, potentially back on a players baseline, more often. As I suspect that many players will not be familiar with this particular wording. Hence why I thought it worthwhile being brought up.
It is also the fact that the units in Ambush must be deployed in a legal formation that also creates an issue - so whilst the MC was closer, by a few millimeters to the front of the terrain alongside the Ambush - the unit that had to be deployed next to the 'discovered' unit, had to be deployed in front corner to back corner contact with it. So the MC was well outside its ZoC. These two elements combined create a perfect situation to considerably disrupt the deployment of an Ambush. And I would argue, in this instance, that the Ambush would have logically been 'set' along the front tree-line of the Plantation - as that was facing the enemy deployment area.
If I am honest I think it is slightly odd that the unit that 'discovers' the ambush can (in effect) dictate its deployment to such an extent - but the rules are clear, so I can only assume that this was the deliberate intention. But I thought it worth an open forum discussion
Thanks |
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