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Discovering an ambush
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 06, 2024 7:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
[

More fundamentally umpires may feal that it is wrong to impose a rule change on an unsuspecting player,



To my mind the fundamental issue is that if the two players disagree on what the rule is, no matter which way the umpire rules they will be imposing a change on an unsuspecting player. It is the nature of the beast when one gets rulings.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 06, 2024 8:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:
To my mind the fundamental issue is that if the two players disagree on what the rule is, no matter which way the umpire rules they will be imposing a change on an unsuspecting player. It is the nature of the beast when one gets rulings.


I am talking about a change to a clearly written section of the rules.
IMHO very different to a correction for someone who has misread, or an interpretaton of an ambiguous area.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 06, 2024 9:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Duplicated

Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Ven Juin 07, 2024 5:26 am; édité 1 fois
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 07, 2024 4:12 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike, did you read through the discussion I linked to? You asked Gavin point blank about this and he gave you an unambiguous answer. And Dan participated at least in the start of the discussion. I quite agree that this should be in the errata. The post in the ADLG Technical Board folder describes a process where national refs promulgate ruling of and collect questions for the Rules Committee which issues rulings that are eventually incorporated into the errata. Reality falls a bit short of this, but this is still the forum of record, the rules committee did, sort of, speak, and we should find a way to all work together to keep everyone up to speed. Maybe someone should take notes.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 07, 2024 5:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Neep a écrit:
Mike, did you read through the discussion I linked to? You asked Gavin point blank about this and he gave you an unambiguous answer


Exactly, and so this example beautifully illustrates my point. I took part in that discussion back in 2019 and had nonetheless forgotten that Gavin has said that “Stop†should instead be changed to â€interruptâ€. It is a rules change, not a clarification, and not easily accessible as it is not in either the rules or any of the errata.


Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Ven Juin 07, 2024 7:03 pm; édité 1 fois
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Andy Fyfe
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 07, 2024 4:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
Neep a écrit:
Mike, did you read through the discussion I linked to? You asked Gavin point blank about this and he gave you an unambiguous answer


Exactly, and so this example beautifully illustrates my point. I took part in that discussion back in 2019 and had nonetheless forgotten that Gavin has said that “Stop†should instead be changed to â€interruptâ€. It is a rules change, not a clarification, and not easily accessible as it is not in the rules or either of the 2 errata.


I think ADLG would benefit from an FAQ document which will be a concise and up to date reference of rules queries from forum and competitions so that all players are aware of the rulings they are likely to encounter.
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babyshark
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 07, 2024 4:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Andy Fyfe a écrit:

I think ADLG would benefit from an FAQ document which will be a concise and up to date reference of rules queries from forum and competitions so that all players are aware of the rulings they are likely to encounter.


This is such a good idea that it has already been implemented in a post pinned to the top of this forum section. http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8884

Marc
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 07, 2024 8:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Marc, FAQ stands for "frequently asked questions". It is essentially a cultivated "Q&A". Sometimes the questions are unequivocally answered in the rules but are so surprising that players constantly seek reassurance that they mean what they say. Other times the questions highlight an egregious lapse in the rules that needs to be filled with an erratum.
What you linked to is the errata. That is corrections to the text or sometimes corrections to the rules themselves i.e. changes. It is not a solution to a lack of clarity.

Overall the AdlG rules are good, the support plan is solid. But the execution is lacking. Rather than dwell on it, let me offer the following suggestions.

Have the rules committee publish once a quarter a "docket" of the questions that have come up that they will look at along with formal ruling on things they have decided. Then annually these would either generate an erratum, or be added to a second "Clarifications" document instead. I think the assurance of attention would make the discussion here much more focused and helpful.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 08, 2024 2:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Neep a écrit:
once a quarter ....Then annually


For everyone who wants something this frequent, there is someone who wants it less frequent.
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Andy Fyfe
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 11:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Neep a écrit:
once a quarter ....Then annually


For everyone who wants something this frequent, there is someone who wants it less frequent.


Hi Dan,

Did this question about ambushes ever make it to the rules committee?

During the World Championship in Madrid last weekend there were rulings that units could continue their move after discovering a real ambush.

Andy
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 5:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you for the reminder


The Official confirmed ruling is:

The unit may no longer move if the ambush contains a unit when it is revealed at 1 UD.


Dernière édition par Hazelbark le Mer Avr 30, 2025 12:28 pm; édité 1 fois
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Andy Fyfe
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 30, 2025 8:49 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Thank you for the reminder


The Official confirmed ruling is:

The unit may no longer move if the ambush contains a unit.


Thank you Dan.

Is there a plan to add this to the errata or to add a FAQ section to that document?

Andy
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 05, 2025 4:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dan, your post only muddies the waters.

It would be helpful to know what was said and who said it. Officially only three things are official, the French version of the rules, the errata, and published rulings of the DT rules committee. Anything else is opinion, often sound opinion, but as you yourself have noted elsewhere even the author's opinions are subject to correction or reconsideration.

I'm guessing you have always read this issue as written one way, and so took confirmation less newsworthy. I think that, right or wrong, there is a very natural alternative reading. There are two paragraphs on page 77. The third deals with the automatic detection of an ambush, either at 1UD in cover, or up to >29UD in line of sight. The fourth with voluntary revelation, and ends with a sentence permitting the opponent to continue their movement. The challenge is whether automatic detection ends the opposition's move and voluntary does not, or rather the last sentence should apply to both paragraphs together.

As best I can figure, the main considerations are that ending a move at 1UD prevents locking up a weak ambush in ZoCs or fleeing a strong one. (Or the annoyance of stopping a move 10's of UD's away Very Happy ) The main reason for revealing during the opponent's turn is to avoid being outflanked by a diagonal approach. Both these can be worked around if everyone is on the same page.

But we are not. Because 3 1/2 years ago Gavin, talking with Hervé, insisted that movement continued after revelation, and per Andy this is the way the Madrid contest was arbitrated. So who should we follow?

Please DT, do better.


Dernière édition par Neep le Mar Mai 06, 2025 4:33 am; édité 1 fois
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 05, 2025 11:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Not quite Neep. 
Paraphrasing that 3.5 year old thread, we said that a unit stops at 1UD when a real ambush is revealed. Otherwise if it is revealed at another point, the unit may continue its movement, but may not charge the unit(s) in ambush. 

So follow what Hazelbark has said above. 
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 07, 2025 4:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Andy Fyfe a écrit:
Hazelbark a écrit:
Neep a écrit:
once a quarter ....Then annually


For everyone who wants something this frequent, there is someone who wants it less frequent.


Hi Dan,

Did this question about ambushes ever make it to the rules committee?

During the World Championship in Madrid last weekend there were rulings that units could continue their move after discovering a real ambush.

Andy


Who was umpire in Madrid?
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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