Art De La Guerre
Bienvenue sur le forum de discussion de la règle de jeu l'Art De La Guerre
 
FAQFAQ RechercherRechercher Liste des MembresListe des Membres Groupes d'utilisateursGroupes d'utilisateurs S'enregistrerS'enregistrer
ProfilProfil Se connecter pour vérifier ses messages privésSe connecter pour vérifier ses messages privés ConnexionConnexion
Uncontrolled Charge and interpenetration
Page 1 sur 4 Aller à la page 1, 2, 3, 4  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Auteur Message
SteveR
Signifer


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 369
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 4:35 am    Sujet du message: Uncontrolled Charge and interpenetration Répondre en citant
So I have been having trouble with an issue here and it has me going a bit in circles. I may be overthinking it.

Here is the base case.

A unit of impetuous MSw has a unit of LI in front of it as a screen

2UD away is an enemy LI with a MSw behind it. Viz

M
L

L
M

Impetuous units are not required to charge uncontrolled if their target is LI and they will interpenetrate or burst through friendlies.

The target must be the LI because it is the closest directly in front. It is true that the impetuous MSw could declare the enemy MSw to be the target of a controlled charge but this is an uncontrolled charge so they dont get to choose. It has to be the LI. So their target is one of the exemptions on page 46

BUT they dont have to interpenetrate to do it. They could slide and not interpenetrate the friendly LI. They would then contact the enemy LI corner to corner, if it were allowed to stand - say in terrain - and then conform. Of it it evades they could continue their charge. So there is a way to charge without it being one of the exceptions on page 46

However when making an uncontrolled charge the unit does so by the "shortest route" It is pretty simple to come up with a case where the shortest route would not be a slide - say if the enemy were not parallel and the corner to be contacted was slightly refused.

So here is the circular argument that has me spinning my wheels. I think the MSw is provoked. However it is exempted from interpenetrating. But if it slides it can charge on a line which will make contact. But if it slides is it not taking the shortest route to that enemy.

It feels wrong to have the shortest route exempt the impetuous troops from charging - allowing them to spend 1 CP to move instead of 3 CP - when they have an enemy in range that they can charge if they don't take the technically shortest route.

But the rules do not care about my feelings.

One final point. One of the exemptions to uncontrolled charges is Mounted vs Elephants. They are not required to charge "if the only target unit" is an elephant. Implying that impetuous units may have more than one target of a charge even if the other case does not say "only" target. So perhaps the MSw are exempted from charging the LI but still have to charge the enemy MSw.

Am I missing something obvious?
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mark G Fry
Légat


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 10:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:
So I have been having trouble with an issue here and it has me going a bit in circles. I may be overthinking it.

Here is the base case.

A unit of impetuous MSw has a unit of LI in front of it as a screen

2UD away is an enemy LI with a MSw behind it. Viz

M
L

L
M

Impetuous units are not required to charge uncontrolled if their target is LI and they will interpenetrate or burst through friendlies.

The target must be the LI because it is the closest directly in front. It is true that the impetuous MSw could declare the enemy MSw to be the target of a controlled charge but this is an uncontrolled charge so they dont get to choose. It has to be the LI. So their target is one of the exemptions on page 46

BUT they dont have to interpenetrate to do it. They could slide and not interpenetrate the friendly LI. They would then contact the enemy LI corner to corner, if it were allowed to stand - say in terrain - and then conform. Of it it evades they could continue their charge. So there is a way to charge without it being one of the exceptions on page 46

However when making an uncontrolled charge the unit does so by the "shortest route" It is pretty simple to come up with a case where the shortest route would not be a slide - say if the enemy were not parallel and the corner to be contacted was slightly refused.

So here is the circular argument that has me spinning my wheels. I think the MSw is provoked. However it is exempted from interpenetrating. But if it slides it can charge on a line which will make contact. But if it slides is it not taking the shortest route to that enemy.

It feels wrong to have the shortest route exempt the impetuous troops from charging - allowing them to spend 1 CP to move instead of 3 CP - when they have an enemy in range that they can charge if they don't take the technically shortest route.

But the rules do not care about my feelings.

One final point. One of the exemptions to uncontrolled charges is Mounted vs Elephants. They are not required to charge "if the only target unit" is an elephant. Implying that impetuous units may have more than one target of a charge even if the other case does not say "only" target. So perhaps the MSw are exempted from charging the LI but still have to charge the enemy MSw.

Am I missing something obvious?


Hi Steve

Why is it an impetuous charge? If, as you state, you don't have to charge the enemy LF or the enemy MSw (although I think that not interpenetrating rule may only apply to non-LF units as you can pass through your own LF with impunity ... but I might be wrong here).
I also don't think you can voluntarily make an uncontrolled charge anyway (?) as it is either uncontrolled or it isn't (or you choose to make it uncontrolled deliberately by just ignoring the MSw and allocating no CPs to it). But I don't think you Disorder your own LF by an uncontrolled charge through them.

A controlled charge - at the enemy LF or MSw only costs you 1CP - but a short move would cost you 2CPs - as you don't have to charge (if the logic about interpenetrating your own lights does apply). And so even if you sidestepped 1UD, charged the enemy MSw, the enemy LF will have to evade as you state (as they are in the open) and you'd hit the enemy MSw on the corner and conform, which would be just the same as charging straight through your own LF at the enemy LF and on into the MSw for 1CP (as a controlled charge).

I am probably being very dim here, but I cannot see the problem Very Happy.
As the enemy LF must evade, there is no chance of them standing and holding your charge, so you can charge through your own LF for 1CP, drive off the enemy LF and hit the enemy MSw - if that is what you want to do.

I think the bit about charging multiple units is, again, probably not really an issue, as you can declare a charge on a unit behind a unit that might evade (so charge your own LF at an enemy Elephant with its own LF unit in front of it, for example), as long as the unit behind is in charge range.

Also - impetuous foot are forced to charge enemy mounted units that present a rear to them - as I have found out to my cost!

Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mike Bennett
Légat


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 582
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 11:15 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Is the light foot in terrain? In the open they must evade and so do not count as the primary target.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
KevinD
Légat


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 646
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 1:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The enemy LI is the nearest enemy and hence the only possible target of the uncontrolled charge. The shortest route there involves interpenetrating the friendly LI. Uncontrolled charges don’t occur vs light troops if they involve an interpenetration so you don’t make an uncontrolled charge in this case. There is no exception to the shortest route rule just because the shortest route involves an interpenetration or burst through.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
KevinD
Légat


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 646
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 1:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
Is the light foot in terrain? In the open they must evade and so do not count as the primary target.


They don’t have to count as the target of a charge but they may. “Heavy troops can choose a target beyond enemy LI…†This does not say they can’t choose the LI as the target. However, uncontrolled troops don’t have this choice. Their target must be the closest enemy. In this case that is the LI, in which case there is no uncontrolled charge. If the nearest enemy of an uncontrolled charge is not a valid target, you do not make the uncontrolled charge. You don’t go looking for another target.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Neep
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 2:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Steve, I think you have to add some implicit understandings to the rules. An enemy is either a target or not a target. If it meets an exception, it is not a target. If there were a line of friendly LI so you couldn't pull the slide and hit a corner trick, then the LI cannot be targets, but the enemy MI is. Next, the "shortest path" must be the shortest legal path. Say you have enemy LH in front and El behind them. The shortest path is liable to put you in contact with the El which cannot be a target - the shortest legal path must start with a slide or wheel that will threaten the LH, but avoid the El.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
KevinD
Légat


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 646
Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 2:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No, if the shortest path to the target is not allowed by one of the exceptions, you do not make an uncontrolled charge.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
SteveR
Signifer


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 369
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 2:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks to everyone (so far) for their thoughts.

Mark - the issue is that if an impetuous unit has a valid target of a charge that will be uncontrolled then it is subject to the uncontrolled charge and must pay 3 CP to do anything else. If it does not have a valid target it operates as normal. The enemy LI is its target bu the rules but the shortest path provides an exemption (interpenetrate friendly LI) where a longer one does not.

I like the construction of "shortest legal path" as a resolution. However the interpenetration of LI is not illegal, just not required per the exemption.

We can simplify the situation even further - assume there is no enemy MSw - just an enemy LI. The LI is angled slightly such that the corner to be contacted is refused a bit.

M
L

L

Is the impetuous MSw freed from the requirement to make an uncontrolled charge because the "shortest" path is through the friendly LI where it is also possible to slide and make contact?

I hope not.....
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mark G Fry
Légat


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 4:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Steve

Page 46 - Exceptions to uncontrolled charge
An Impetuous unit is not required to make an uncontrolled charge in the following circumstances
Bullet 7 states:
If the target enemy unit is light infantry and the unit would need to interpenetrate or burst through friendly troops to reach them.

So in your revised example - this most definitely applies, as the enemy MSw have disappeared and so the only target for your impetuous MSw are the enemy LF. So the impetuous MSW wont charge.

However, and this is where I think Kevin is possibly incorrect (but happy to be proven wrong myself, if there is suitable wording in the rules?), if the enemy MSw are still in the example and are still within standard charge range of the impetuous MSw, the impetuous MSw must charge, as (as Mike states) the LF must evade (being in the open) and the next
most threatening enemy becomes the enemy MSw, which automatically becomes the target of the impetuous charge. The LF is never a threatening enemy as it exerts no ZoC on the enemy MSw in the open.

Personally, I think the wording in bullet 7 is misleading, as in no other circumstances do heavier troops take any notice of friendly LF (in the open) and they can charge through, interpenetrate them or pass through them with no impediment or disadvantage to either party.

If however, the ruling (intention) is that LF will stop impetuous MSw from charging in this way, its a significant enough interpretation to warrant some serious debate, as it is not the way that we've been playing things (in most of the UK competitions I've been involved in) to date. Interesting.

Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis


Dernière édition par Mark G Fry le Mer Oct 16, 2024 4:42 pm; édité 1 fois
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Neep
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 4:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Kevin, I have to say I disagree completely. The rules only say "shortest path to the target". If the path would fall into an exception, then the enemy unit is not a target and thus the path is not to the target. Look at all the possible paths to the unit that make it a target and select a shortest.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mark G Fry
Légat


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 4:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In fact - our problem appears to be resolved by the Note: at the bottom of the second column at the top of Page 46 (above the diagram) that states:

'If the target of the uncontrolled charge can evade, any other enemy unit or terrain behind the target unit up to the movement allowance of the charging unit, plus one UD must be considered before proceeding with the uncontrolled charge.'

So, my interpretation (same as Mike's I think) is that the enemy MSw must be the target of the uncontrolled charge, as the LF wont be there when the MSw impetuous charges.
But I suppose it comes down to which rule overrides the other.
Hey Ho.
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Neep
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 5:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mark, that note refers to the situation where the possible further target falls into an exception - for example the elephant behind LH. If you could not avoid the elephant in every situation including rolling high, then it's an exception and you do not make an uncontrolled charge.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mark G Fry
Légat


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 5:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Neep a écrit:
Mark, that note refers to the situation where the possible further target falls into an exception - for example the elephant behind LH. If you could not avoid the elephant in every situation including rolling high, then it's an exception and you do not make an uncontrolled charge.


I understand that Neep - but it appears to equally resolve the situation posed by Steve R.

NB: the Elephant behind the LH is a poor example, as the LH cannot evade through the Elephant (as it causes panic) but I get your point Smile
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Neep
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 5:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I see your point. The note says consider the situation is its totality, which is more or less what I'm arguing.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1235
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 16, 2024 5:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I hope this does not confuse further. 
  1. The enemy LI is the target of your charge, though you may declare the unit behind under certain provisos (pp43,46).
  2. Your LI prevent your Medium Sword from being compelled to charge the enemy LI (p46, 7th bpt.)
  3. Once the impetuous unit charges it must move it’s maximum adjusted allowance in pursuit of the evading enemy LI (unless exempted as noted), and may end up contacting a secondary target behind (pp43,44).
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
  
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Page 1 sur 4 Aller à la page 1, 2, 3, 4  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet Toutes les heures sont au format GMT

 
Sauter vers:  
Vous ne pouvez pas poster de nouveaux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas éditer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas supprimer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas voter dans les sondages de ce forum