Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 596
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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 Posté le: Lun Oct 28, 2024 1:55 pm Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: | Fighting against an opponent with better armour makes it harder for you to defeat them in hand to hand combat.  It doesn’t make it any easier for them to defeat you.Â
Given the likely historical (and tabletop) role of war wagons is to be an “obstacle†that delays the enemy, it would seem an odd development were they to become better at actually defeating armoured foot in combat (by matching their armour), as well as the effect of making it even harder for unarmoured foot to successfully assault them in the course of a normal 7-turn game |
True Tim.
As a games mechanism I can see how it works, and if they are 'Battleready' they are at least on a comparable basic combat factor in melee to a HF swd/spear with Armour (for example). Although a typical historical infantry opponent would be HF swd polearm, which now adds an extra dimension to the combat.
It just seems a bit 'unjust' that despite all the protective capabilities of a war wagon, which were historically designed to give the fighting crews a combat advantage (of height and cover) over an infantry opponent and at least height parity against a mounted enemy, they are disadvantaged if they win (as the enemy gets the +1 for being heavier armour).
Historically, in relation to Hussites anyway, the Catholic Crusaders never managed to storm a wagon laager frontally with either armoured infantry or dismounted knights or MAA - although I agree making them impervious to assault would make for a very dull game. But maybe treating them a bit more like mobile combination of Obstacles & Fortifications might be realistic.
Anyway ... the 'rules iz da rules' and it will be interesting to see how they play out at Beachhead.
I have used them in a v.3 competition and got stomped-on by a Swiss army and by a German army (both with a lot of pikes) - but did OK against a HYW French and a WotR Yorkist ... so we'll see. v.4 now of course gives the Hussite infantry the new polearm factors - which changes the composition of the army favorably as well.
Of course Beachhead has the added possible extra dimension of Elephants as well ... so that will be an interesting test 
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1627
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Lun Oct 28, 2024 2:31 pm Sujet du message: |
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I’d suggest that the concept of them being “disasvanatged if they win†is perhaps not the best way to look at this scenario, and that a different perspective might be better.
The results of any given single set of combat die rolls are not really the issue here - each roll may well represent “winning†or “losing†to us players at any given point in time, but the important thing isn’t how a single roll pans out, or if it gets a “+1†post combat adjustment.
Instead it’s whether the combination of base factors, bonuses, furious charge effects, abilities to overlap (or not), numbers of hit points on both sides, points costs, availability in the lists and a load of other factors make these beasties perform in game in a way which is reasonably close to history without breaking the game at the same time.
Looking bottom-up as to whether “armoured†should be neutralized is a really tiny factor in the bigger picture, and as you’ve already noted the addition of “battle ready†does (since v4)  wagons a chance to have something even better than “armour†simply by expensing some command pips anyway.Â
Sure, Herve could have chosen to go e them “armour†… but that’s at the end of the day not actually “armourâ€, it’s just a “+1 if they lose to some people†factor that feeds into and exists alongside all of the other dimensions that make wagons what they are.Â
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 596
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Lun Oct 28, 2024 4:25 pm Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: | I’d suggest that the concept of them being “disasvanatged if they win†is perhaps not the best way to look at this scenario, and that a different perspective might be better.
The results of any given single set of combat die rolls are not really the issue here - each roll may well represent “winning†or “losing†to us players at any given point in time, but the important thing isn’t how a single roll pans out, or if it gets a “+1†post combat adjustment.
Instead it’s whether the combination of base factors, bonuses, furious charge effects, abilities to overlap (or not), numbers of hit points on both sides, points costs, availability in the lists and a load of other factors make these beasties perform in game in a way which is reasonably close to history without breaking the game at the same time.
Looking bottom-up as to whether “armoured†should be neutralized is a really tiny factor in the bigger picture, and as you’ve already noted the addition of “battle ready†does (since v4)  wagons a chance to have something even better than “armour†simply by expensing some command pips anyway.Â
Sure, Herve could have chosen to go e them “armour†… but that’s at the end of the day not actually “armourâ€, it’s just a “+1 if they lose to some people†factor that feeds into and exists alongside all of the other dimensions that make wagons what they are. |
I understand & agree Tim - and with my current dice rolling, my Hussites will need a lot of prayer & psalm singing rather than the +1 of being Armoured to do well 
Cheers
Mark
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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