Art De La Guerre

[pichuleante]

The title says it all but allow me to be more especific.Can a unit make a uncontrolled



move to a support position which include an slide and a turn? Or may it remain static if there are no other way to contact its objective?
Can a uncontrolled charge not being a real charge?

[Hazelbark]

An uncontrolled charge must follow the rules of movement for charges.

p 30 A slide cannot be combined with a turn

[Mike Bennett]

In this context is the word “charge” being used more widely? Eg a mandatory uncontrolled movement to simple or melee support is not a Charge and so its manoeuvre options are less constrained, and so a slide and turn can be possible, and all manoeuvres are not constrained to only be before any advance,

[Neep]

A good question that needs a careful answer.

[lionelrus]

[KevinD]

Look at the example in page 46, particularly units D, E and F, all of which “move” to a support position (or in the case of F consider whether it can “move” to support position).

[Ramses II]

Agreed Dan, Kevin and Mike. 
Impetuous units without orders must attempt to move into legitimate contact with enemy units. Where there is more than one impetuous unit, they are considered left to right across the battlefield. 


Those unit(s) that make first contact are deemed to be charging (and are constrained by charge rules), otherwise they are moving into support a unit that is already in contact. 

P46 describes this more completely. 

[Andy Fyfe]

[Zoltan]

[Neep]

I believe pichuleante meant "slide and wheel" or "advance, turn, advance, wheel, advance" etc. etc.

[madaxeman]

Trying to drag this back to just one single question.... which I think is:

Does an Uncontrolled charge that will end with a unit in a support position have to adhere to the rules for "charging", or does it use the rules for "moving" ?

If you instead were to pay pips to move the same unit into the exact same position of support, this would be a "move" not a "charge" and so would be covered by the rules for moves - not "charges" - hence the confusion/question.

The consequence here is that if a unit making an "Uncontrolled charge" into a support position is required to follow the rules for "charging" then it will sometimes be unable to reach a support position which it could have reached if its movement into support followed the rules for a "move".

The most likely scenario I can think of where this might make a difference is that a "move" can combine a slide and then a wheel, which effectively allows any unit to gain an additional 1MU of movement (left or right) by sliding before wheeling off to the side. This combination isn't allowed in a "charge"


I think Lionel has answered this clearly, but even so it is a bit of a weird one:

- A unit making an Uncontrolled Charge always follows the Charge rules to determine how the unit moves across the tabletop, even in some situations where a "commanded" unit would not be allowed to make a "charge" move.
- Unit making an Uncontrolled Charge may sometimes not be able to reach a support position, even when they could reach that position by being commanded to do so.
- This will mean that sometimes Impetuous units which are within "move" distance of a support position, but not within "charge" distance will instead remain in place and will not be required to make an Uncontrolled charge.

Does that sound about right?


FWIW, the question may arise from p46 which sets out the rules for "uncontrolled charges".

In the section "Resolution of uncontrolled charges"
- the 1st sentence of the 3rd bullet says "Each unit making an uncontrolled charge advances by the shortest route towards its target"
- the 2nd sentence of the 3rd bullet says "If the target is already in melee, the unit tries to place itself in support"
- the 2nd sentence of the 5th bullet then adds "They stop as soon as .... in a position to support a friendly unit in melee"

(my added emphasis for clarity)
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www.madaxeman.com

[Mike Bennett]

[Neep]

- the 1st sentence of the 3rd bullet says "Each unit making an uncontrolled charge advances by the shortest route towards its target"[note 1]

That is the only stipulation on uncontrolled charge displacement. The Devil's Advocate might argue that therefore even the initial contact can be done with a move. More sensibly, without further restriction, one should fall back on the established rules - initial contact has charge restrictions, subsequent contact has move restrictions. That's what the rules committee member has already said.

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note 1 "shortest route" is a worm in the can of another thread...

[vexillia]

As the axeman says: "it's weird one". Let's not forget that charges are a "they're over there lads" type of move and in ADLG do not involve complex manoeuvres en route. An uncontrolled charge should be the same, if not more so.

On that basis, I think the "uncontrolled charge (move) to support using movement rules" argument is a bit "gamey". Having run out of pips, using the movement rules allows impetuous troops a free standard move which could involve complex manoeuvres (when they are charging head long to help their mates ahead of them). The use of the charge rules restricts this somewhat which seems far more appropriate.

I remember a group of very vocal DBM(M) players who put forward similar arguments because they wanted their impetuous troops to be pip free, heat seeking missiles.
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Martin Stephenson

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[Rafa Tortosa]