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Charge and ZOC
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Orlando Almeida
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Inscrit le: 10 Sep 2016
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 26, 2026 10:04 am    Sujet du message: Charge and ZOC Répondre en citant
One question regarding to charge ant entering the ZOC of enemies

On situation 1 , the unit to charge needs to wheel but every part of its base that enters on the ZOC of the enemy is covered by the base of its friendly nearby unit. So I think that there is no issue with the legality of this charge.

On situation 2 , the unit needs to wheel to charge, but one part (the side, not the front of the unit), enters on the ZOC of the enemy not covered by the base of its friendly nearby unit. Can this charge be made? I think not, the friendly nearby unit, should expend 1 UD to advance and cover the area to allow the charge. Please confirm

Thank you
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Zoltan
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Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 550
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 26, 2026 7:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed - scenario 2 charge is NOT permitted.

Even if the blue friend on the right pays 1 CP to advance to “cover the ZoCâ€, I think the charge would NOT be permitted. The permission for a charger’s side edge to “interpenetrate†its friend during a wheel at the start of a charge is only permitted if the units start together in a straight line. If the friend advances to “cover the ZoC†the two blue units are no longer in a straight line.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 27, 2026 12:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
Agreed - scenario 2 charge is NOT permitted.

Even if the blue friend on the right pays 1 CP to advance to “cover the ZoCâ€, I think the charge would NOT be permitted. The permission for a charger’s side edge to “interpenetrate†its friend during a wheel at the start of a charge is only permitted if the units start together in a straight line. If the friend advances to “cover the ZoC†the two blue units are no longer in a straight line.


The relevant rule is on p38.

5th bullet, Wheel: "Units can temporarily overlap adjacent friendly units during a wheel; provided that they do not end their move overlapping them"

There is no requirement to "start in a straight line".

FWIW the "situation 1" diagram in the OP is also drawn incorrectly. Any diagonal line starting at a corner of a unit and connecting to a point somewhere on the opposite face will always be longer than 1UD - this is maths. So, even in "situation 1" part of the side edge of the charging unit will (in theory) project into the enemy ZoC, no matter how shallow the angle of wheel.

Whilst it probably won't suit some of the linguistic purists, my inclination is that this is another one of those teeny little things that we all have collectively chosen to ignore in order to make game play easier and more practical, and as such wheeling out of a line in this situation is always possible (rather than almost always impossible).

If you wanted to try and shoehorn a RAW justification into the discussion, you could combine a reading of bullet 5 (above) with the 2nd sentence in the heading section "The wheel is measured by the straight line distance moved by the front corner that moves furthest" to try and convince yourself that the whole "rear corner swinging out" thing doesn't really get considered until the moving unit stops moving.

This is of course somewhat iffy, but makes playing the game a lot easier. YVMV.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 27, 2026 6:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Madaxeman

P.31 methinks.

The example picture shows units starting in a straight line. 

But your view is that “adjacent†covers any scenario where friendly units start touching each other?

So this is a general exemption from the interpenetration rules for wheeling “tail flick�
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 27, 2026 9:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
@Madaxeman

P.31 methinks.

The example picture shows units starting in a straight line. 

But your view is that “adjacent†covers any scenario where friendly units start touching each other?

So this is a general exemption from the interpenetration rules for wheeling “tail flick�


I’m honestly not that fussed about this no matter what page it may be on tbh - the whole “flicking the tail out†thing always strikes me as just an artefact of playing a toy soldiers game with square bases that we should all be able to get past, but where the precise language to get around it has yet to be discovered and transcribed in any ruleset.

I’d personally be inclined to let any opponent make this sort of move as life is just too short to worry about it, and it sort of makes sense anyway that it should be possible - and I suspect most players would also do so without even thinking about it too hard. 
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KevinD
Tribun


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 28, 2026 4:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed. I’d like the rule to be that, if your unit starts out not in an obstacle or ZOC or whatever, once the unit starts moving you only consider the front edge until the movement is complete and the unit placed in the position it moves to, then you check to see if it fits. (in reality when marching you wheel where the front edge of your unit wheeled, you do not race off at an angle to the side to make sure the unit is at all times a perfect rectangle.)

Dernière édition par KevinD le Mer Juil 29, 2026 5:17 am; édité 1 fois
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 28, 2026 2:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Sense prevails.

Cannot say " common sense " as that is a rare beast, which is more rare than people wish to believe. Smile
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 29, 2026 2:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In the larger picture, you are wheeling a unit out of your line in order to get a match up on an enemy unit not directly in front. While the enemy has given the opportunity by leaving a gap, it is still a wheezy maneuver and no reason not to strictly limit it. You can always advance into the gap while the enemy is locked by your ZoC's.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juil 29, 2026 5:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Neep a écrit:
In the larger picture, you are wheeling a unit out of your line in order to get a match up on an enemy unit not directly in front. While the enemy has given the opportunity by leaving a gap, it is still a wheezy maneuver and no reason not to strictly limit it. You can always advance into the gap while the enemy is locked by your ZoC's.


However.... this whole scenario only arises when there is no enemy directly in front.

Were there an enemy directly in front, your unit is forced to charge it, and only it... which ("being forced to respond to enemies directly to your front") is a clear, central design principle that underpins a whole tranche of the rules.

If you have no such "in your face" opponents directly to your front, then "being able to charge someone else nearby" surely seems like its the sort of thing that should be allowed, or even encouraged?

As such, IMO it's pretty much the exact opposite of a "wheezy maneuver" that needs to be "limited" (or even prevented)... and doubly so if the mechanism for "limiting" it happened to be hidden in geometry and mathematics, instead of being explicitly stated and spelled out in the rulebook.
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