Art De La Guerre

[Viking709]

At Historicon a situation came up where a Roman legion unit was fighting a Gaul to his front and one to his flank. The Roman dropped one cohesion but survived the combat. In the Roman turn he charged the flanking Gaul unit in the flank with heavy cavalry
The umpire adjusted the combat as follows
The Roman legion fought at a zero since the flanking Gaul unit was still there and did not turn to fight the Roman cav and a -1 for disorder. After resolving this combat the Roman cav got a plus one for flank attack and a plus one for charging hvy inf in flank. The Gauls fought back at a zero. Is this correct?
The way I've seen it played in the past the flanking Gauls would no longer be flanking the Romans legion in response to being flanked themselves. So the legion would be a plus one minus one for disorder

[footslogger]

The Gaul unit will not conform until after resolution of the melee (check the FAQ under multiple opponents, since it is not engaged with the front of an enemy it will conform at the end of the melee phase, and you always conform against someone attacking you in the flank after the melee is resolved). So the attacking Roman cav does indeed get +1 for charging heavy infantry in the flank, and +1 for charging an enemy in the flank.

The Gaul loses a cohesion point for being hit in the flank while its front is in contact with the enemy (this is in the same place in the FAQ), so it fights at a zero for being flanked, down to a -1 for being disordered.

The legion will be a -1 (0 for being hit in the flank and -1 for disordered) until the following phase, after the Gaul has conformed.

[Viking709]

Thanks found it in the FAQ

However it states that the unit (Gaul) drops a cohesion level and then turns to face its flank attacker(Roman cav) this implies that the Roman legion is no longer engaged by two opponents and no longer fights at a zero. Am I missing something?

[footslogger]

[footslogger]

One other thing, the Gauls who flanked the original unit no longer provide a +1 for support to the Gauls on the front of the legion when they themselves are hit in the flank.

[Viking709]

Do the Roman legion still suffer the zero fighting value or do they get back their basic plus one before any disorder minuses

[footslogger]

[Wagmestre]

Just to precise :
As soon as the flanking gaul Hi is charged by the roman Hc, this gaul unit is considerd as fighting the cav, not the legion anymore. Even before conforming against the cav.

The legion doens't suffer the zero fighting factor anymore, straight after the gaul Hi is contacted by the cav charge.

So 2 combats :
1st: gaul Hi vs roman Hi (front to front)
2nd: roman cav flanking the second gaul Hi (previously flanking the roman legion)

At the end of the turn, the second gaul Hi will conform with the cav unit.

[footslogger]

[Viking709]

Here's my dilemma. Wegmestre way of doing the combat is how I thought it should be done but footslogger is supporting the wAy the umpire adjuscated the combat.
I thought the turning after the melee was a mechanism to remind players that they are resolving a flank attack.
My thought was the Gaul would no longer give support against the legion and no longer count as fighting the legions flank since the flanked Gaul has to respond and fight the Roman cavalry

[footslogger]

[Ramses II]

I believe Wagmestre not be may correct. The reasoning is that the flanking Gauls are effectively in melee with two enemy units according to the definitions on p50.

So I would expect the Legion to fight at 0 due to the flanking Gauls with -1 for the disorder, as adjuticated on the day.

However the flanking Gauls also suffer the same fate as they are in melee with two enemy units to front and flank. So they fight the Roman cavalry with a factor of 0, with -1 for the disorder marker that the cavalry also inflict. (See the latest FAQ, p8 )

[Wagmestre]

[Ramses II]

Umm,
Wagmestre, I agree that the Flanking Gauls are no longer able to support according to that definition.

However, the Flanking Gauls are still in melee with the Legion according to the definition of Melee on p50. The rules and the FAQ have nothing that cancels this as far as I can see - unless I have missed something (which is entirely possible )

If this is true, then the Legion is still fighting at 0, with -1 for disorder until the Flanking Gauls turn to face the Cavalry at the end of this round of melee (or are destroyed).

So I believe the factors in the melees are:-
Round 1:
Legion (0, -1 disorder) =-1, Gauls (+1, +1 support)=+2
difference = 3

Round 2:
Legion (0, -1 disorder) =-1, Gauls (+1)
difference = 2

Flanking Gauls (0, -1 disorder) = -1, Heavy Cav (+1, +1 vs HI or MI, +1 flank) = +3
difference = 4

Round 3 (if everything survives . . . )
Legion (+1, -1 disorder) =0, Gauls (+1)
difference = 1

Flanking Gauls (+1, -1 disorder) = 0, Heavy Cav (+1 vs MI, or 0 vs HI) = 0 or 1
difference = 0 or 1

[footslogger]

I read it the same way Ramses does. The reduced to zero provision of being attacked on the flank or rear (p56) is separate from support.