Art De La Guerre

[belinconnux]

Its dangerous I think. There are 283 basic lists and how more including allies?
I think using good thematic for competition will be a solution for seeing rare lists.

Its very difficult too have agrement about list. Look the first one "Sumer & Akkad". Historians and Zoologists are at odd about Heavy Chariots. First claim that this weapon was towed by wild Donkey, Hemione. Second that hemione are too wild and weak to tow those heavy machines.
Another, "medium" chariot towed by 3 horses! It's not serious. The third horse was a kind of shield for the other.
So in fact vote is ... democcratic!

I'm sorry I've lot of arguments but my english is too bad to develop
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Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact

[madaxeman]

[ethan]

I am with the Madaxeman here, there is a remarkable amount of ongoing archaeological and historical research relevant to ancient and medieval armies. Also, as the game gets more international research in languages other than English become more widely known further expanding our knowledge.

The goal isn't to create super armies, but to have armies that accurately reflect the current state of knowledge.

[Snowhitsky]

[AntiokosIII]

Now you're just bragging. Brilliant generals can find uses for crap troops. That does not make crap troops any less crappy. A good definition of bad troops would be that the player has to be a near-genius to find a use for them. I have played with a lot of mediocre cavalry. They do have uses. They are still crap. The same holds for javelins. They can be wedged and levered into a useful role, but not easily. In both cases the same functions can be performed by REAL TROOPS that can carry our other tasks as well.
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Tabletop miniatures are the only completely honorable form of warfare ever invented.

[chris6]

Both of you are right in their own way. The "crappy" troops can find their role but this depends on the situation and the opponent.

This is what I like about ADG. All troops and Army compositions can be usefull if you have a plan and stick to it, even if the plan sucks, well than you loose, but not because of crappy troops, but because of the plan.

And still we have to remember that jav or med cav mediocre are cheap. We can not expect superior troops at low costs.
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[Snowhitsky]

Bragging? Possibly. It all depends on how many players can achieve similar results with that list...

Sure, if you want to go headlong into combat with your more fragile troops don't expect great results.

Here is how I use mediocre MC and LMI javelinmen:

MC: at 5 points apiece you can usually build a longer cavalry line than your opponent which means the mediocre cavalry can be manoeuvred into a flanking position while your better cavalry faces off the opponent's line. That forces your opponent to either retreat or charge in against your better cavalry after splitting off flank guards. Either way, you have opportunities to exploit.

LMI javelinmen: Most terrain falls on the flanks where players naturally position their mounted commands. If you place one javelinmen in that terrain the enemy mounted can't move past it without risking a flank charge. If it swings wide to avoid the terrain, the javelinmen can come out, ZOC the end element and shoot it. Your opponent now has no choice but to screen off the javelinmen with one unit so the rest of the command can proceed with it's attack. Apart from costing an additional 1 PIP to turn to face and possibly charge, that unit is usually worth a lot more than the javelinmen and the width of the command is reduced by one (CUE: mediocre MC enters from the open flank). Oh yes, and the odd javelinmen in your army also have a tendency of keeping elephants honest...

You mention that real troops could do the same tasks but I disagree. In the case of the javelinmen, MI can't evade so when the mounted turn around and charge you in the open the result isn't good. As for the cavalry, it's all a question of points. Sure, an impact/bow cavalry will do a much better job but they cost twice as much so your line isn't usually that much wider than your opponents.

To summarize, you can't use "crap" troops in a head-on match up and expect results but neither would you, say, send your mounted troops into terrain against terrain troops. That's not their role.

[belinconnux]

[Pyrrhus17]

[Pyrrhus17]

[Hazelbark]

I think there is a way to do list updates intelligently. I think too many list updates are X should be this troop type. It really becomes game waging history at times.

So the method would be to have group "A" compile all the arguments and citations. Let's say the argument is Hittites were really the same basic chariot as the NKE and therefore should be LCH bow not HCH impact. Then that data is turned over to a more senior (author?) group "B" that says ok we can take this, not that to promote history of game balance.

Some of this would be simple troop ratios, other would be sharper clarification on strategist or troop availability by years. Other clean ups like list #243 which allows heavy impact knights in 1180 AD.

Note this is likely also a 12-18 month process.

[Janos Hunyadi]

[ethan]

[Janos Hunyadi]

[Pyrrhus17]

I can understand the "fear " of Barkerdom . I think this can be controlled much easier than in DBA DBMM DBM etc etc etc . The problem before I feel was trying to "win " over the committee or individual who was the last h
judge on the lists ( still know you can see Barkers prejudice for and against some lists ) That is what I feel could be eliminated with the judgement for or against (discussion of) taking place here on the forums . ever few years that gives time to play test .. In short I would want to follow typical modern new release habits like new cars that don't work after the first month of use games that crash midgame each time you play .spaceships that blow up on the launch pad . 1.1 1.2 1.5 1.99999516 etc I rather would go with the hand made approach or tried and tested like an ak-47