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french versions flank contact is different
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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vodnik
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 24, 2018 10:58 am    Sujet du message: french versions flank contact is different Répondre en citant
...Flank contact on P. 51 Is different in the trench version:
An attacking unit can contact an opponent's flank if their movement begins with the front edge entirely or partially behind the line extending the enemy's front without any part of the attacker's base extended front or back of the attacked unit.
...
Une unite attaquante peut contacter le flanc d'une ennemi lorsqu'elle debute son mouvement en aynt sa face frontale entièrement ou partiellement derrière la ligne qui prolonge la fronte de l'unite ennemie et sans qu'aucune partie de son socle ne soit directement face au tront ou à l'arrière de l'element.
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Laurence
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Inscrit le: 31 Mar 2017
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 24, 2018 3:06 pm    Sujet du message: Re: french versions flank contact is different Répondre en citant
vodnik a écrit:
...Flank contact on P. 51 Is different in the trench version:
An attacking unit can contact an opponent's flank if their movement begins with the front edge entirely or partially behind the line extending the enemy's front without any part of the attacker's base extended front or back of the attacked unit.
...
Une unite attaquante peut contacter le flanc d'une ennemi lorsqu'elle debute son mouvement en aynt sa face frontale entièrement ou partiellement derrière la ligne qui prolonge la fronte de l'unite ennemie et sans qu'aucune partie de son socle ne soit directement face au tront ou à l'arrière de l'element.



I agree with Vodnik. I try to explain further the issue in the rule on p51 "Flank contact":

"An attacking unit can contact the nearest flank edge of an enemy
if it begins ist movement with its front edge
either entirely or partially..."

Then the English translator added wrongly: "...directly to the flank of the enemy..."
This rule does not exist in the French version!
The French rule says that the attacking unit has to be with its front edge either entirely or partially behind the extended enemy's front edge, but must be with no part facing directly the enemy's front or rear edge. Would help if in the illustration such situation is represented.

The issue is: The front edge can, but is not mandatory, face the enemy's flank edge. From the English text, you may interpretate that you have to face the enemy's flank edge.

I am pretty sure that most readers of the English rule interpretate the flank charge not correctly.

If someone of the editors can confirm please, also with regard to the coming tournament season. Thanks
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 24, 2018 3:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
From what you describe I have always played it the 'French' way, and never seen anything else.
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Laurence
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 24, 2018 4:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
From what you describe I have always played it the 'French' way, and never seen anything else.



Glad that you confirm the "French way".

The English wording "Begins its movement...directly to the flank..." can lead to misinterpretation by readers with mother tongue other than English, as happened.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 25, 2018 12:59 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hmm Vodnik, Lawrence could you explain your concerns further. 


In English the term “directly to the flank†refers to the location of the unit rather than its positional facing. 

Although the wording may appear different, I believe the sense is identical; that the unit must be located on the flank of the enemy, behind the front edge and ahead of the rear edge.

However the attacking unit can be facing in any direction, it doesn’t have to start its movement facing the enemy. 
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Laurence
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 31 Mar 2017
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 25, 2018 8:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Hmm Vodnik, Lawrence could you explain your concerns further. 


In English the term “directly to the flank†refers to the location of the unit rather than its positional facing. 

Although the wording may appear different, I believe the sense is identical; that the unit must be located on the flank of the enemy, behind the front edge and ahead of the rear edge.

However the attacking unit can be facing in any direction, it doesn’t have to start its movement facing the enemy. 


In fact I referred to its positional facing and interpretated that the flank charge must begin with the front facing "directly to the flank" of enemy unit.
All clear now, thanks for explanation.
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 25, 2018 10:02 pm    Sujet du message: Re: french versions flank contact is different Répondre en citant
vodnik a écrit:
...Flank contact on P. 51 Is different in the trench version:
An attacking unit can contact an opponent's flank if their movement begins with the front edge entirely or partially behind the line extending the enemy's front without any part of the attacker's base extended front or back of the attacked unit.

Just to note that the front edge part of the rule is often overlooked in my experience.

Also, it seems the English rule is incorrect:

Citation:
... directly to the flank of the enemy (ie in the zone between the straight lines between the enemy's front and rear edges)...

The bit in bold should read:
Citation:
... in the zone between the straight line extending the enemy's front edge and and the one extending that flank edge)

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I can't remember where.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 26, 2018 12:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ahh yes.

Well Dave, I cannot be entirely sure here with the fragment of the French rules presented, but I think the translation is accurate. 

However, your wording scribes very much better the intent behind the diagram on p51. So it seems there may be an error in the French rules as well Wink 

There are two units located ‘directly’ in the flank of the enemy, B2 and E. But E is also behind the rear of the enemy so could equally choose to contact the enemy rear instead. 

That said, I am not sure this needs a FAQ, unless others disagree. 
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 26, 2018 5:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
We all seem to agree we just arrive there with different words.
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Laurence
Gladiateur


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Mar 01, 2018 10:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Ahh yes.

Well Dave, I cannot be entirely sure here with the fragment of the French rules presented, but I think the translation is accurate. 

However, your wording scribes very much better the intent behind the diagram on p51. So it seems there may be an error in the French rules as well Wink 

There are two units located ‘directly’ in the flank of the enemy, B2 and E. But E is also behind the rear of the enemy so could equally choose to contact the enemy rear instead. 

That said, I am not sure this needs a FAQ, unless others disagree. 


Fyi - The example of unit E has been discussed in my other topic of 3rd Apr 2017 "Flanc contact with wrong example".
Dave confirmed that the English translation and diagram are contradictory.
Diagram re unit E is correct. He also mentioned a clarification on this point needed to put into the FAQ.
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