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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 10:23 am Sujet du message: Displaced units moving (or not) |
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Your cavalry unit advances on my pike unit and my cavalry unit. You manage to ZOC both my units with your unit. My pike unit is 0.5UD from your unit; my cavalry unit is 0.9UD from your unit.
In my turn, I elect to charge you with my cavalry unit. I then conform my cavalry unit to your cavalry unit, displacing my pike unit to one side. Am I now permitted to move my pike unit into corner to corner contact with your cavalry unit and in support of my cavalry unit?
Page 53 Conforming and displacing units.
Second paragraph first sentence: "A unit in support can be displaced only if it remains in the position of support."
Second paragraph (new) last sentence: "A friendly unit that has been displaced in this way may not move during its movement phase."
Does the movement prohibition in the last sentence of the second paragraph:
A. ONLY apply to units in support that were displaced but remain in support, or
B. Apply to ALL displaced friendly units regardless of whether or not they were in support prior to being displaced?
If A: then my pike can now move into a support position
If B: then my pike are prohibited from moving because they were displaced by my own cavalry. If so, it seems a bit odd that just one of your units can thwart my numerical superiority by simply zocing my 2 units knowing that I can only get one into contact in my turn |
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belinconnux
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009 Messages: 5443
Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
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Posté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 12:16 pm Sujet du message: |
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The correct answer is B.
"My" cavalry unit use a misposition of your two unit for zoquing both. _________________ Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 12:27 pm Sujet du message: |
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The short answer is “noâ€.
Once displaced in this way, the unit may not move.Â
However, the nearest unit can charge the enemy first and the furthest unit then move up in support, so the situation is not usually as bad as you describe.
But pike are unmnoeuverable, so if they are facing the wrong way and ZoCed on a flank, they can only turn on the spot and can neither charge the enemy nor support their friends. Which is the whole point of cavalry using this tactic to harass pike . . . |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 7:20 pm Sujet du message: |
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Ramses II a écrit: | The short answer is “noâ€.
Once displaced in this way, the unit may not move.Â
However, the nearest unit can charge the enemy first and the furthest unit then move up in support, so the situation is not usually as bad as you describe.
But pike are unmnoeuverable, so if they are facing the wrong way and ZoCed on a flank, they can only turn on the spot and can neither charge the enemy nor support their friends. Which is the whole point of cavalry using this tactic to harass pike . . . |
1. But if the nearest unit (pike) charges first, it will displace the furthest unit (cavalry). Remember both pike and cavalry are already within 1 UD of the enemy so there is no room for the charging unit (whichever one it is) to conform without displacing its friend.
2. The ambiguity is caused by the English words "...displaced in this way...".
- we ask, "In WHICH way?"
- to which the response is,"In the way specified in sentence 1. Namely, a unit IN A SUPPORT POSITION..."
If the intention is to prohibit ALL units that have been displaced from moving, the sentence would simply say, "A friendly unit that has been displaced may not move during its movement phase." |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 9:43 pm Sujet du message: |
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If you review the French official ammendments, they do say in effect
“A friendly unit that has been displaced may not move during its movement phase."
Good catch about either unit being displaced by the other, though there is always the option for one unit to exit the ZoC first before the other charges, which would allow a third unit to move into support afterwards. |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 12:34 am Sujet du message: |
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Ramses II a écrit: | If you review the French official ammendments, they do say in effect
“A friendly unit that has been displaced may not move during its movement phase."
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So you are confirming that the (well intentioned) English translation does not precisely reflect the French rules. The clear rule is: if you are displaced by your friend you can NOT move.
I'm glad we've sorted that out!
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 12:51 am Sujet du message: |
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Yup
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 7:57 pm Sujet du message: |
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Zoltan a écrit: | Ramses II a écrit: | If you review the French official ammendments, they do say in effect
“A friendly unit that has been displaced may not move during its movement phase."
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So you are confirming that the (well intentioned) English translation does not precisely reflect the French rules. The clear rule is: if you are displaced by your friend you can NOT move.
I'm glad we've sorted that out!
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Nope.
The official amendments, in English, corrected a mistake in the English version of the rules.
Life is a lot easier if you print the amendments off and stick them in the rule book.
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 9:04 pm Sujet du message: |
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daveallen a écrit: |
Nope.
The official amendments, in English, corrected a mistake in the English version of the rules.
Life is a lot easier if you print the amendments off and stick them in the rule book.
Dave |
Always good to teach grandmother to suck eggs Dave! I was actually reading from the amendment that I'd printed off and stuck in my rulebook.
You appear to be saying that the wording of the English amendment is the root cause of a creating an ambiguity in the English version of the rules.
But at least the matter is now resolved through this thread: If a friendly unit is displaced (regardless of whether or not it was previously in a support position) it can NOT move in its movement phase.
Matter closed. |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Mer Mar 07, 2018 12:31 am Sujet du message: |
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You're right, my apologies.
I'm claiming exhaustion caused by a near fatal bout of man flu
Having read the rule again and the Interpenetration rule on page 43 and the FAQ some problems occur to me.
The first is about LI that have been interpenetrated in a charge and moved back to make space for the chargers. Their displacement isn't technically for a conform so what stops them moving in that turn?
Secondly, what exactly do you think the priorities given in the 3rd Bullet Point mean?
Citation: | units are moved the minimum space necessary in priority to the rear or to the flank. |
I've always taken it to mean:
1) to whichever entails shortest move, flank or rear;
2) if distances are equal move to the rear if possible, if not to the flank;
3) under no circumstances move forwards or diagonally.
Only slightly fuddled
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Zoltan
Centurion
Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015 Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
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Posté le: Ven Mar 09, 2018 3:17 am Sujet du message: |
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Let's all play Barkerese! A fun game for consenting adults in public.
As a self-proclaimed pedant, I think you do have a point. There does indeed appear to be some inconsistency between:
1. displacement required to allow a unit to conform (p.53). In this case, we have established (above) that the displaced unit CAN NOT move during its movement phase
2. displacement required to allow "adjustment of positions" (p.43). In this case, it appears a unit being passed through CAN move normally. FAQ p.8 says so in relation to displaced LI (the specific case posed) but presumably this would also apply to other troop types? The FAQ explicitly says that this type of displacement is "not considered a movement".
Happy days.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4701
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Ven Mar 09, 2018 8:58 am Sujet du message: |
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To come back in particular position related, it's better to charge with phalanx, as Cv would probably evade.
If Cv do not, your own Cv can't move but you fight at +2.
If CV evade, you do not push your own CV, so your Cv can move.
Sorry for my English, i try to polish it in british tournaments! _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1468
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Dim Oct 28, 2018 5:23 am Sujet du message: |
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Zoltan a écrit: | Let's all play Barkerese! A fun game for consenting adults in public.
As a self-proclaimed pedant, I think you do have a point. There does indeed appear to be some inconsistency between:
1. displacement required to allow a unit to conform (p.53). In this case, we have established (above) that the displaced unit CAN NOT move during its movement phase
2. displacement required to allow "adjustment of positions" (p.43). In this case, it appears a unit being passed through CAN move normally. FAQ p.8 says so in relation to displaced LI (the specific case posed) but presumably this would also apply to other troop types? The FAQ explicitly says that this type of displacement is "not considered a movement".
Happy days.
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Bit of necromancy here... Â the LF point may require tidying up.
My suspicion is that being displaced by / to make space for someone who ends in contact with enemy always prevents further movement, but being displaced in other interpenetration does not.Â
Excluding LF from this restriction makes all sorts of overly-clever elephant-related shenanigans possible... _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015 Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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Posté le: Lun Oct 29, 2018 1:31 am Sujet du message: |
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As Zoltan says, - A unit that is displaced by interpenetration (p43) may move after the interpenetration
- However P53 has been amended to say that any unit which is displaced by a friendly unit contacting (and Conforming on) an enemy may not move after being displaced.
This includes LI that have been interpenetrated in order to make contact with the enemy. Could you explain further the concern about displaced LI.
Interpenetration (p43) has never been FAQd (as far as I am aware). When Light troops are passed through by heavier troops they are displaced backwards, but may still move after the displacement provided this was not done as part of "conforming and displacing units" (p53). And the same is true for heavier troops (eg Bowmen by Swordsmen). |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014 Messages: 1468
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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Posté le: Lun Oct 29, 2018 10:25 am Sujet du message: |
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The question that arose was whether the LF are displaced at the point / because they are interpenetrated, or as a result of having to be displaced backwards to allow the unit charging through them enough room to contact the enemy.
Â
 If LF are displaced by the interpenetration they can (explicitly) move as per that rule.[/i] _________________ www.madaxeman.com |
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