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Evade Moves & Contractions
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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vexillia
Signifer


Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
Messages: 321
Localisation: Warrington, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 03, 2018 9:31 pm    Sujet du message: Evade Moves & Contractions Répondre en citant
Would I be right in assuming that if a group has to contract to get past an obstacle they must do so before they slide or wheel as group contractions cannot be combined with slides and wheels?

Thanks in advance.
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Martin Stephenson
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Dernière édition par vexillia le Jeu Avr 05, 2018 7:33 pm; édité 1 fois
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JohnTheBoring
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 15 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 04, 2018 12:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't think you can contract in an evade move. (Wrong rules?)

A contraction can include a wheel as part of the forward move, but not a slide
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vexillia
Signifer


Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 04, 2018 1:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Evade move & contraction: Page 39, right hand column, first bullet.

You're right you can wheel and contract but in which order?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 04, 2018 9:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:
Evade move & contraction: Page 39, right hand column, first bullet.

You're right you can wheel and contract but in which order?


Left hand bottom
"first slide"
"if not wheel"
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vexillia
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 8:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Left hand bottom
"first slide"
"if not wheel"


Not quite. I read this section as slide first and then wheel if necessary. That's different from "if not" which reads like a replacement for the slide.

So back to my original question: when do groups contract (especially as they can't slide and contract in a normal move)?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 4:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think I mistook your first question so we are talking past each other. My error.

When contract?
So the bullet you reference says "compelled" I view that as only in situations that require the contraction. Note this is only in an evade so the "no slide with contraction" does not apply. So the below two evader CV needing to pass the 1 UD gap between two Heavy friends would compel a contraction

_CC
H_H
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vexillia
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 4:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
When contract?
So the bullet you reference says "compelled" I view that as only in situations that require the contraction. Note this is only in an evade so the "no slide with contraction" does not apply.

I agree on both points. They are both sensible points and consistent with the tone of the rules as written. But the question remains when? In your example there's only one option.

In less clear initial situations there are two possible sequences as one seeks to evade:
  • slide, wheel, then finally group contraction
  • group contraction, slide then finally wheel

Sadly the text says nothing specific and I was looking for a ruling of sorts. Do we wait for the Technical Committee to drop by or is there an escalation mechanism?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 5:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think it is clear:

You start to evade.
The moment you are 1 UD from obstacle you assess (in order)
1) Slide if you can by up to 1 UD
2) "if the obstacle cannot be avoided by a slide, then it can wheel"
3) A group may be compelled to contract. You cannot contract until compelled too.

I do not believe the contract allows you to exceed the 1 UD slide. i.E. the whole group does not slide, then the individual unit does not get an additional contraction.
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vexillia
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 5:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
I think it is clear:

You start to evade.
The moment you are 1 UD from obstacle you assess (in order)
1) Slide if you can by up to 1 UD
2) "if the obstacle cannot be avoided by a slide, then it can wheel"
3) A group may be compelled to contract. You cannot contract until compelled too.

I agree with the above but I don't think it's clear.

Hazelbark a écrit:
I do not believe the contract allows you to exceed the 1 UD slide. i.E. the whole group does not slide, then the individual unit does not get an additional contraction.

This is confusing me. Individual units contracting! Care to rephrase?
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Zoltan
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Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 8:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[quote="uote] They are both sensible points and consistent with the tone of the rules as written. [/quote]

As an aside, the tone of the rules as translated (from the original tone). To what extent did translators of historical texts impose their own tone (manipulation) on the original work? Subsequent retranslations sometimes uncover this "bias". Just saying... Laughing
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 10:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:


Hazelbark a écrit:
I do not believe the contract allows you to exceed the 1 UD slide. i.E. the whole group does not slide, then the individual unit does not get an additional contraction.

This is confusing me. Individual units contracting! Care to rephrase?


123_ want to evade directly south.
XY_Z Obstacles XY and Z block the direct path of 1 and 2. not there is a 1 UD gap between Y and Z.

3 will move straight. It does not slide
2 can slide and therefore contract behind 3.
1 cannot slide as then it still is blocked.
1 cannot slide with 2, then claim it can contract behind 2 and 3, because that exceeds the 1 UD.
So 1 will have to try to wheel up to 90.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 05, 2018 11:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
vexillia a écrit:


Hazelbark a écrit:
I do not believe the contract allows you to exceed the 1 UD slide. i.E. the whole group does not slide, then the individual unit does not get an additional contraction.

This is confusing me. Individual units contracting! Care to rephrase?


123_ want to evade directly south.
XY_Z Obstacles XY and Z block the direct path of 1 and 2. not there is a 1 UD gap between Y and Z.

3 will move straight. It does not slide
2 can slide and therefore contract behind 3.
1 cannot slide as then it still is blocked.
1 cannot slide with 2, then claim it can contract behind 2 and 3, because that exceeds the 1 UD.
So 1 will have to try to wheel up to 90.


Initially 123 start as a group and throw one die to determine how far their variable evade movement will be. Because they start as a group, presumably all 3 units are obliged to end as a group using whichever mechanism (slide, wheel, contract) is necessary to achieve that? Or can the group break up mid-evade (slip sliding away) but each unit still using the same previously determined variable movement distance? Alternatively, each unit might need to evade individually or as sub groups (with separate variable movement dice rolls) if their movement options don't allow them to end as a group.
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hcaille
Administrateur


Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2008
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Localisation: Lyon
MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 06, 2018 7:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hello

When a group have to evade, it had to be made in the most logical way.
The example below is right :

[quote
]123_ want to evade directly south.
XY_Z Obstacles XY and Z block the direct path of 1 and 2. not there is a 1 UD gap between Y and Z.

3 will move straight. It does not slide
2 can slide and therefore contract behind 3.
1 cannot slide as then it still is blocked.
1 cannot slide with 2, then claim it can contract behind 2 and 3, because that exceeds the 1 UD.
So 1 will have to try to wheel up to 90.[/quote]

Precisions :
- If a group evade, you throw only one dicto adjust the distance but it is possible that units will be separated after the evade move
- For each unit, you proceed in the following order :
1 - Slide
2 - Wheel if slide is not sufficient
- If necessary a group can contract to pass through a gap. The units at the rear move less so they can be ctach by the cherger.
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Zoltan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 06, 2018 7:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
hcaille a écrit:
Hello

When a group have to evade, it had to be made in the most logical way.
The example below is right :

[quote
]123_ want to evade directly south.
XY_Z Obstacles XY and Z block the direct path of 1 and 2. not there is a 1 UD gap between Y and Z.

3 will move straight. It does not slide
2 can slide and therefore contract behind 3.
1 cannot slide as then it still is blocked.
1 cannot slide with 2, then claim it can contract behind 2 and 3, because that exceeds the 1 UD.
So 1 will have to try to wheel up to 90.


Precisions :
- If a group evade, you throw only one dicto adjust the distance but it is possible that units will be separated after the evade move
- For each unit, you proceed in the following order :
1 - Slide
2 - Wheel if slide is not sufficient
- If necessary a group can contract to pass through a gap. The units at the rear move less so they can be ctach by the cherger.[/quote]

Merci monsieur!
So one die roll for the group, but it is possible that the group may split up as a result of each unit makes its own legal evade move. It is clear.
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vexillia
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 06, 2018 8:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks everyone.
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Martin Stephenson
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