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Dispersal of Light Foot
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
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Localisation: Bristol, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 09, 2018 7:15 pm    Sujet du message: Dispersal of Light Foot Répondre en citant
In a situation where 2 units of LF are in melee in open terrain, if a unit of HF (or other heavier troops) moves up from behind it's own LF, can it charge and disperse both its own LF and the enemy LF?

We think in theory this is impossible - as the HF must stop at the point of contact with the LF (friend or foe) when it disperses them, so in the following turn the opposing enemy LF, which is no longer in melee/combat, can retire away from the enemy HF.

However ... when the HF disperses its own friendly LF is it eligible for a pursuit move?
If yes, then it can pursue into contact with the enemy LF which is dispersed in it's own game turn (we assume)?

Also in a similar situation (2 opposing LF fighting in open terrain) if a unit of heavier troops (Heavy Cavalry in this case) charges these units in the flank - effectively touching both LF units at the same time (there was terrain restrictions to the rear of 1 LF and an offensive HF unit facing towards it on the other, so it was not possible to angle the HC to just hit the enemy LF alone), does the HC disperse both units?

All a bit obscure - but both have occurred in recent games.

Many thanks
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fdunadan
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 09, 2018 7:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You can't disperse your own troops, LF or not. Since the friendly Lf is in melee, he can't be interpenetrated by another friendly unit.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 09, 2018 9:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Fdunadan is correct.

As for second question FAQ give an answer that flank charger conforms to one unit and then it is dispersed. You are still only dispersing enemy units
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 09, 2018 10:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As Ffunadan says, once your LI are actually in melee with some legitimate enemy, they cannot be interpenetrated.

However, the heavier unit may move into a position to support your LI, or attacking the  flank of the enemy LI. At that point if the melee is in the open, the enemy LI are destroyed since they may not be in contact with heavier troops but may not evade from the contact. 

In a similar situation, LI can attack the flank of an enemy unit that is in melee, but risk their own destruction if they do this in the open, as they cannot evade another unit contacting their flank or rear. 
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 10, 2018 8:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
As Ffunadan says, once your LI are actually in melee with some legitimate enemy, they cannot be interpenetrated.

However, the heavier unit may move into a position to support your LI, or attacking the  flank of the enemy LI. At that point if the melee is in the open, the enemy LI are destroyed since they may not be in contact with heavier troops but may not evade from the contact. 

In a similar situation, LI can attack the flank of an enemy unit that is in melee, but risk their own destruction if they do this in the open, as they cannot evade another unit contacting their flank or rear. 

However, if heavier troops only contact corner to corner a Li in melle, it only provide a support.
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Mark G Fry
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 10, 2018 9:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Good to know - it makes sense

It does of course mean that if your LF screen gets engaged in melee in-front of a line of friendly heavier troops, it can effectively block movement by the heavier friendly troops. At least until the melees are resolved.

Many thanks
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 10, 2018 12:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
Ramses II a écrit:
As Ffunadan says, once your LI are actually in melee with some legitimate enemy, they cannot be interpenetrated.

However, the heavier unit may move into a position to support your LI, or attacking the  flank of the enemy LI. At that point if the melee is in the open, the enemy LI are destroyed since they may not be in contact with heavier troops but may not evade from the contact. 

In a similar situation, LI can attack the flank of an enemy unit that is in melee, but risk their own destruction if they do this in the open, as they cannot evade another unit contacting their flank or rear. 

However, if heavier troops only contact corner to corner a Li in melle, it only provide a support.
I also thought that might be case. However, as currently presented, the FAQ is clear on this point 
Citation:
Restriction on contact with LI
Q: When a unit of LI is alone in contact with a heavy unit, sometimes it is required to retreat and sometimes it must move. Is there a difference? How is this mechanism to be applied?

A: The principle is that the player must move his unit one UD away from the enemy in contact, towards a position that ensures his survival should the enemy pursuit. He can therefore reposition it where he wants to, somewhere on a circle arc of radius 1 UD relative to the initial point of contact. If this entire movement is not possible, then the LI is destroyed.
(my emphasis)

In the example, the LI is alone, fighting an enemy in the open. Any contact by a heavier enemy requires the LI to evade which it cannot do. So under this FAQ it is destroyed.

Now consider the following scenario
    AABBLL
    1122lili
Where the melee is in the open, LL and lili are Light Infantry and  A,B,1,2 are heavier units. Should B or 2 be destroyed in the melee, that would also cause the destruction of the adjacent light infantry. 

If this is not the intention, then the FAQ needs to be amended.
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Korik
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Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 14, 2018 2:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Restriction on contact with LI
Q: When a unit of LI is alone in contact with a heavy unit, sometimes it is required to retreat and sometimes it must move. Is there a difference? How is this mechanism to be applied?
A: The principle is that the player must move his unit one UD away from the enemy in contact, towards a position that ensures his survival should the enemy pursuit. He can therefore reposition it where he wants to, somewhere on a circle arc of radius 1 UD relative to the initial point of contact. If this entire movement is not possible, then the LI is destroyed

I'd always assumed the requirement for LI to be moved one UD away meant when the LI in contact with it's front edge, such as providing flank support to a friendly unit which was in front edge to front edge contact with a 'heavy' enemy element
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 14, 2018 2:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:

 
Citation:
Restriction on contact with LI
Q: When a unit of LI is alone in contact with a heavy unit, sometimes it is required to retreat and sometimes it must move. Is there a difference? How is this mechanism to be applied?

A: The principle is that the player must move his unit one UD away from the enemy in contact, towards a position that ensures his survival should the enemy pursuit. He can therefore reposition it where he wants to, somewhere on a circle arc of radius 1 UD relative to the initial point of contact. If this entire movement is not possible, then the LI is destroyed.


This FAQ point is a clarification of the rules on p52, colum 2 para 2 to cover situations when LF and HI find themselves in corner to corner contact 'accidentally' following a prior combat, not a general rule about LF disperal

Dispersal of enemy LF happens when they are contacted by a Charge. Moving to an overlap position is not a Charge. See definition of what a Charge is on p50.
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Korik
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Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 14, 2018 11:38 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That's quite an interesting set of circumstances

Technically, the heavier troops can't charge the LI from their initial corner to corner contact but, if the LI didn't have to make a mandatory one UD move, would have to conform instead as per page 55; as this wouldn't be classed as a 'charge' then the LI wouldn't be destroyed as per page 52, but would have the option to evade (again, as per page 55)

The move required of LI on page 52 of the rules is 'moved back one UD to break contact', so presumably that would be straight back; there is no mention of 'ensuring its survival' in the rules and so the FAQ adds another condition to the movement of the LI as well as varying the direction of that movement from 'back one UD' to anywhere within a one UD radius

And 'ensuring its survival' is a bit of a moot point - in the absence of friends to evade through, or disordering terrain which would slow down a pursuer, the only troop type the LI are guaranteed to get away from is HI

Might have been less complicated to drop the rule requiring LI in corner to corner contact with heavier troops to move away and rely on the current rules regarding conforming - if it's the LI's move they can just move away normally, or if it's the other side's move then they have the option of conforming with the LI and chasing it off or ignoring it

Where the LI are in actual front edge to side/rear edge contact of the heavier troop type then fair enough, they bounce off one UD straight back
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