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AlanCutner
Tribun
Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 747
Localisation: Scotland
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Posté le: Mar Nov 11, 2014 7:57 pm Sujet du message: Longbows vs Crossbows |
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In shooting non-LI crossbows are at least as good as longbow except against foot with protection 0 or 1. Crossbows are better against foot protection 3 and mounted protection 2 and 3 (ie. knights).
Why?
I'm aware of very little, if any, evidence that crossbowmen stood up to knights better than longbowmen. Most of the evidence suggests otherwise.
Or have I misread the rules somewhere. |
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Rosbif
Signifer
Inscrit le: 18 Fév 2013 Messages: 312
Localisation: Toulouse
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 6:55 am Sujet du message: |
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I think it's just a question of simplifying something quite complex. As you know, there were several ways of spanning a crossbow and each allowed a different amount of energy to be stored in the bow, giving it more or less penetrating power. But in the rules that diversity is represented by a single factor, so something had to give.
All the best
Paul |
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Apa
Tribun
Inscrit le: 22 Déc 2008 Messages: 713
Localisation: Clermont-Ferrand
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 7:10 am Sujet du message: |
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I guess we French have too many bad memories with Longbows to make them stronger !  |
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chris6
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 02 Déc 2013 Messages: 198
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 9:18 am Sujet du message: |
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Funny thing is: In the games we just had the longbows shooted out the crossbows by far! Looks like those little lead chaps know what to do, no matter how the game mechanics....  |
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Borix
Magister Militum

Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2009 Messages: 4573
Localisation: Levallois, near Paris
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 9:36 am Sujet du message: |
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Don't forget... Crossbows make all protection at 1, even MC who have no protection... In fact crossbows give its a +1 protection. In same manner, Kn have also just a +1 but crossbows werre cosiderated very efficient against plate armor.
In other hand, Long Bows substract -1 to all protections... So Cv have 0, Kn only 1...
Really, I often played french ordonnance, Navarese with elite LB... It was very letal for my opponents !!!!
Borix bard and cross&longbowman !  _________________ Réaliser dans l'âge d'homme les rêves de la jeunesse, c'est ainsi qu'un poète a défini le bonheur ! Léon Blum |
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Timur le lent
Signifer

Inscrit le: 04 Juin 2009 Messages: 361
Localisation: Pays Cathare
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 9:42 am Sujet du message: Re: Longbows vs Crossbows |
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AlanCutner a écrit: | In shooting non-LI crossbows are at least as good as longbow except against foot with protection 0 or 1. Crossbows are better against foot protection 3 and mounted protection 2 and 3 (ie. knights).
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In fact, in my mind, Crossbows are better than longbows only against a protection of 3 that is to say only against foot knights. So, against only one kind of unit.
They are as good as longbows against units with a protection of 2 (knights and other heavy armor).
And they are less efficient against a 0 protection that is to say, cavalry and bowmen as they give them a protection of 1.
So, Longbow is a more polyvalent and deadly device in this game !
(We have answer you at the same time with Boris but, the answers are coherent !) _________________ "Tu vois Raoul, c'était pas la peine de s'énerver, monsieur convient." |
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Soranon
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2012 Messages: 2640
Localisation: Toulouse
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 9:50 am Sujet du message: |
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Crossbow are less efficient against troops with a 1 protection (not light troops) too. Longbow shoot against a 1-1 = 0 protection in this case and crossbow shoot against a 1 protection.... |
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Borix
Magister Militum

Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2009 Messages: 4573
Localisation: Levallois, near Paris
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 9:50 am Sujet du message: |
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And Longbows are better against unit with protection of 1 !!!!!
Borix precise bard !  _________________ Réaliser dans l'âge d'homme les rêves de la jeunesse, c'est ainsi qu'un poète a défini le bonheur ! Léon Blum |
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Soranon
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2012 Messages: 2640
Localisation: Toulouse
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 9:51 am Sujet du message: |
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Borix a écrit: | And Longbows are better against unit with protection of 1 !!!!!
Borix precise bard !  |
Too late Borix  |
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chris6
Vétéran
Inscrit le: 02 Déc 2013 Messages: 198
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Posté le: Mer Nov 12, 2014 10:56 am Sujet du message: |
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Borix....Bard to be late...  |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 354
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Posté le: Jeu Nov 13, 2014 11:01 pm Sujet du message: |
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So many non-answers...
I believe you have it slightly wrong Alan (partly as there are no protection 3 mounted).
Against Heavy Knights they are actually equal, the longbows shoot against a target with effective Protection of +1 (start at +2, longbows subtract 1) and crossbows shoot at +1 (as they do against most things). Note also that the longbows and crossbows (if they are LMI, MI, or HI) shoot at +1 vs. all mounted.
Against Medium Knights (pre 1300AD or so I believe), medium cavalry or heavy cavalry Longbows are better shooting at +1 vs. +0 effective protection, crossbows shoot at +1 vs. +1.
Both shoot at +1 to +1 vs LH.
On the foot side:
Longbows and crossbows are even against LI (+1 to +1)
Longbows are better (+0 to +0) against Javelinmen, Bowmen, Crossbowmen, Medium/Heavy spearmen (lacking armor), and pikemen.
Longbows are the same as Xbows against basically all foot with armor.
Crossbows are better against heavily armored foot where they will shoot +0 vs. +1 and Longbows are +0 vs. +2.
No LMI missile armed troop stands much of a chance in the open against a charging knight, possibly not even if it has scored a hit against it beforehand...the melee of a good order(impact or impetuous) knight against LMI is +3 vs. +1 and the LMI take an extra hit if they lose and the knights are going to add one to their roll if they lose (as they have better armor). Even taking that down to +2 vs. +1 (if the knights have taken one or two hits) is pretty unpleasant...
It is worth noting that stakes should be pretty easy to deploy and are very effective against mounted. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1669
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Posté le: Jeu Nov 13, 2014 11:24 pm Sujet du message: |
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Also add many longbows can be bought as elite. I haven't scoured the lists but I haven't seen a crossbow that can.
So on average the Longbow will have a slightly higher number on the dice. |
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Soranon
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2012 Messages: 2640
Localisation: Toulouse
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Posté le: Jeu Nov 13, 2014 11:39 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hazelbark a écrit: | Also add many longbows can be bought as elite. I haven't scoured the lists but I haven't seen a crossbow that can.
So on average the Longbow will have a slightly higher number on the dice. |
Genoan mercenary crossbowmen can be elite (feodal french list 175). I don't remember whitch one but there's another army list like that. And they could have pavise so they are better in shooting figth against longbowmen... But they don't have stakes against mounted... |
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belinconnux
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009 Messages: 5447
Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
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Posté le: Sam Nov 15, 2014 3:51 pm Sujet du message: |
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So ethan ... ?
You wrote that shooters in the plain against Heavy Knight could be destroy quickly? Yes of course you're right
I think it's quite normal. Before Rifle shooters were very fragile alone in front of cavalry. _________________ Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact |
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ethan
Signifer
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 354
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Posté le: Sam Nov 15, 2014 3:57 pm Sujet du message: |
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belinconnux a écrit: | So ethan ... ?
You wrote that shooters in the plain against Heavy Knight could be destroy quickly? Yes of course you're right
I think it's quite normal. Before Rifle shooters were very fragile alone in front of cavalry. |
I am not disagreeing, just pointing out the implications of the rules. I actually think ADLG generally gets the interaction right which is medium foot types (including longbows) in the open don't have much of a chance against charging cavalry - heck Napoleonic infantry in open order probably didn't have much chance against charging cavalry...
This is different from say DBM were Bw(S) in the open were a significant threat. In ADLG if you don't have stakes out you are in trouble. |
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