Art De La Guerre

Viking709 · Auxiliaire Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2015 Messages: 91

If a line of infantry which includes an elephant on the right but has a single enemy unit less than one UD from the extreme left can the whole line charge and is it free or do they have to pay 2 cp because the elephant moved short and did end in combat?

ciofo · Gladiateur Inscrit le: 14 D�c 2015 Messages: 34

I think you have to pay 2 CPs.
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Fabio Ciofini - Arezzo
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Davros · Post� le: Mar Ao� 30, 2016 12:54 pm Sujet du message:

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1669

Viking709 · Auxiliaire Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2015 Messages: 91

Ok
Thanks. Dan

daveallen · Post� le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 9:57 am Sujet du message:

The point to note here is that whilst an advance of less than the full move distance would cost an extra CP because the Elephant is unmanoeuverable, a "Charge" is not an "Advance."

Also, the full move distance for a group is that of the slowest element. So an Elephant grouped with HSp would not cost an extra CP because it only moved 2UD.

Dave

Ramses II · Post� le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 10:37 am Sujet du message:

I agree with Hazelbark; as described the "charge" is usually free for a unit or group if the charging unit is within 1UD of its target.

However, where the group contains unmanoeuverable units AND these units do not move their full distance, the cost is 2CP unless the unmanoeuverable units actually contact the enemy on their front edge or in support. (see p32 and the new FAQ p3 'impetuous units group).

Groups have to begin, move and end their movement together EXCEPT in a charge (p36), so in this case the charge would be free provided the unit on the extreme right hit an enemy within 1UD while any unmanoeuverable units elsewhere continued their full move distance.

daveallen · Post� le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 12:09 pm Sujet du message:

Ramses II · Post� le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 1:33 pm Sujet du message:

I agree with you that a "Charge" is different from an "Advance", but the terms apply to the entire group. So every unit in the group is deemed to be "charging" even if it does not actually make contact with the enemy.

When charging as part of a group there is no compulsion for the Elephants to continue their move. The same is also true for other such non-impetuous yet unmanoeuverable units. Indeed there may be very good tactical reasons for these units to stop short and retain group cohesion.

However if unmanoeuverable units halt their advance before completing their full movement, the cost for the entire group becomes 2CP per p32.

P36 puts this the other way round

footslogger · Vétéran Inscrit le: 12 Jan 2015 Messages: 166

p22 on spontaneous charges makes it clear that either a unit or a group that contains a unit within 1 ud the charge is free, whether there is an unmaneuverable unit or not in the group is irrelevant

Ramses II · Post� le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 1:54 pm Sujet du message:

That is indeed the crux of the question Smile

The definition of a "charge" on p36. is

footslogger · Vétéran Inscrit le: 12 Jan 2015 Messages: 166

There isn't really a question. The rules are clear on p22. The unit or a group that contains the unit can charge without being given any orders. In this case the commander does not need to use any CP.

Ramses II · Post� le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 2:34 pm Sujet du message:

You say potato, I say tomato Laughing

I will check elsewhere and see what the intention was here.

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1669

Ramses II · Post� le: Jeu Sep 01, 2016 7:46 pm Sujet du message:

Ok I have checked with others and found that they all agree with you.

So a group that makes a controlled charge (which includes spontaneous charges) can stop once the charging unit makes contact. This includes all unmanoeuverable units (including impetuous), though they may choose to continue the charge up to their full distance.

Apologies for any confusion caused Embarassed