Art De La Guerre

AlanCutner · Tribun Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 711 Localisation: Scotland

During the Scottish Open we had a situation where full frontal conformation could not be achieved due to an enemy unit. Enemy units cannot be shifted out of the way during a conform. But it wasn't clear an incomplete conformation was allowed due to P53 Incomplete conformation
.... it may happen that complete conformation is not possible due to terrain, the table edge or friendly units that cannot be shifted.

There was a view that the rules intent was to allow combat despite geometric problems. OTOH what was the point of not allowing enemy units to be shifted if that situation could be ignored by allowing incomplete conformation, and the rules state incomplete conformation is allowed if blocked, specifically, by friendly units..

Views?

Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Lun Jan 31, 2022 3:33 pm Sujet du message:

Note that the special case on page 37 is not covered by "due to terrain..." so that list might not be exclusive.

Ramses II · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 12:30 am Sujet du message:

You are correct that only friendly units may be displaced by conformation provided they are not engaged in melee(P52).
However, I am struggling to envisage how a unit could get into this situation without contravening other rules (eg ZoC and most threatening unit)

A picture would help greatly[/list]

Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 4:56 am Sujet du message:

That bothered me too.
But consider an enemy unit with its rear exposed, partially masking a most threatening opposing enemy unit. A friendly unit can make contact with the opposing unit but cannot fully conform because the reversed enemy unit is in the way. The Special Case on page 37 appears to allow you to attack the reversed unit instead, but only if you cannot contact the most threatening unit rather than if you cannot fully conform to the MTU.

Of course I'm not sure this the is the gist of the Scottish Open situation.

Longtooth · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 6:41 am Sujet du message:

You could have a situation like this:

..................xxx
.....................yyy
.
.
..............zzz

xxx is an enemy unit facing in the 'downward' direction
yyy is an enemy unit partially overlapping xxx's front edge and facing in the 'downward' direction
zzz is your unit

Provided that zzz wants to charge xxx's front edge, would he not conform as much as possible? xxx would then fully conform to zzz on its turn.

Jesse

lionelrus · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 12:29 pm Sujet du message:

Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 2:58 pm Sujet du message:

Unless unit Z is already in unit X's ZoC, it seems in the spirit of the rules that Z must slide over making unit Y the MTU, make contact, and fully conform to Y.

That still leaves the question of whether the rules allow partial conformance with X.
Not saying Lionelrus is incorrect, just that I don't see it in the rules (yet?)

fdunadan · Tribun Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009 Messages: 978

If ZZZ begins out of ZoC of either XXX or YYY, it can contact either at it's choice. Only if it enters YYY"s ZoC will it forced into contact with YYY and not XXX.
_________________
Audentes fortuna iuvat.

AlanCutner · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 5:45 pm Sujet du message:

A Cv unit opposite two enemy Inf units, of which only one exerts a ZOC on the Cv or its charge path. If the Cv charge straight ahead they contact the Inf facing them, but not the other unit. If the cavalry charge they cannot push the other infantry out of the way. The quote from the Incomplete Conform section suggests an incomplete conform may not be allowed because its not an enemy unit in the way.

Longtooth · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 6:05 pm Sujet du message:

So long as you are charging an enemy's front, it is ok to have a partial conformation. In your photo, you are allowed to charge the southern medium sword and confirm as much as possible on his front. On your enemy's turn, he will conform to you.....and probably charge your cavalry in the flank.

Jesse

AlanCutner · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 6:24 pm Sujet du message:

Za Otlichiye · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 7:56 pm Sujet du message:

The preambles are often generalizations. (But sometimes have essential rules buried within.)

lionelrus · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 8:18 pm Sujet du message:

lionelrus · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 8:19 pm Sujet du message:

lionelrus · Post� le: Mar F�v 01, 2022 8:45 pm Sujet du message:

Well, it's clear clarification is needed. So, at first, player A charge and can't conform for any reason (terrain, ennemy unit, beer bottle on table, and so on...)
P53 incomplete conformation
3rd bullet
"otherwise, unit remains in imcompete conformation"

So, after charging in front; if unit can't conform for any reason, the unit remains in imcomplete conformation.
Round is end, next round, payer B is in phase.

P52 conforming units in melee
"following a charge, units may sometimes not be able to fully conform. In subsequent movement phases units in melee with an enney on their front must conform if possible".

So at the beggining of his own melee pase, B had uncompletly conformed unit in melee on his front, and so must conform.

I's the case descrited with XXXX YYYY ZZZZ on the top of the post.

Concerning the case photographied, Cv charge MI on his front, cannot conforme because blocked by the other MI. The melee occurs. If Mi survives, he conforms to CV, except if Cv has died in the fight.

The idea is, after charging, charger conforms, if he cannot, then his poor victims do it in his own phase.

Généraly, guys , don't make the rules more twisted she is....
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.