Art De La Guerre

[GG]

This has probably been answered somewhere but it’s Christmas and we were too full of Christmas cheer to look it up

There is a battle line containing

Mounted medium knight. A base width gap. Half a base width in front of this line two javelin men and a crossbow man.

J. J. C.
FK

Directly (a centimetre away) in front of the first javelin man is a plucky foot knight. He charges the first Javelinman who naturally evades. The foot knight continues the charge and contacts the second javelinman corner to corner. We understood that the FK could now conform to the second javelinman. The text says that in the case of an opponent who can evade, the confirmation takes place then the evasion. So we moved the FK in front of the second javelinman who promptly evaded. Our dilemma was that this now put the FK in corner to corner contact with the crossbows.

Can the FK conform once more and if so when? How many times can they conform ? The text seemed to suggest they could do so after the first conformation, but only in the rout and pursuit move.

Is this correct ? If so they manage to move a fair distance sideways. I think we were too tired to look up the answer but it just seemed illogical if we followed the text.

Thanks

Gg

[KevinD]

I think you are conflating conforming units that remained in contact from the previous turn (or contacted after pursuit) with conforming after a charge. What happens in your example is:

1. You declare your Foot Knight’s charge including any turns, slides or wheels.
2. Enemy Javelin decides to evades and rolls for distance and moves to location. (If the other Javelin is in a group with him it could chose to go too at this point. It must decide before rolling for evade distance.)
3. Your Foot Knight rolls distance and any new target you would now contact decides what to do.
4. Second enemy Javelin now decides to evade and rolls distance. (Assuming it did not already evade in 2 above.)
5. Being non impetuous foot, your Foot Knight now moves forward at least 1 UD and up to its full move (2 UD, or 3 UD if you rolled up for charge distance).

Since both enemies evaded you never actually actually contacted enemy and hence do not conform, you just follow your originally declared charge path for 1-3 UDs.

I’m not following your bit about the (enemy?) Mounted Medium Knight. If it is enemy and your Foot Knight contacts it in its charge, the Foot Knight will confirm to it.

[Mark G Fry]

I'd add another step Kevin:
5. Being non impetuous foot, your Foot Knight now moves forward at least 1 UD and up to its full move (2 UD, or 3 UD if you rolled up for charge distance).

6. If the Foot Knights then contact another enemy (if within their original charge range - 2UD or 3UD if they rolled long) and that unit cannot evade (as is the case with the Crossbowmen) - even if it is only a corner-to-corner contact that enemy becomes the target of the charge and the Foot Knights will conform to it frontally.

As long as the Crossbow unit was within the original charge distance (1UD if they throw short, 2UD for standard distance and 3 UDs for long) of the Foot Knights, and also within the path of the charge, they are a legitimate target. As the Foot Knights are not starting their charge behind the flank of the Crossbow unit, even if their original path of attack means they would hit the Crossbow unit on the flank, they must conform to the front of the Crossbow unit.

Cheers
Mark

[KevinD]

Right Mark, but the Foot Knights don’t conform to the left when their path takes them to the corner of the 2nd Javelinmean, and then conform over to the left AGAIN when the third target will be hit in the corner after the first conform. When charging, a unit only conforms once at the end of the charge move, after it makes contact with an enemy who does not evade.

[Mark G Fry]

[KevinD]

It never actually touches either Javelinman so never actually conforms to them. Hence it will not touch the XBow. If it does touch the XBow then it will conform at the end of its charge.

And yes, right. I must have been upside down when I wrote left…

[Zoltan]

Edited for LMI javelinmen. Because the two target units are both capable of being simultaneously contacted by the charge they must decide to evade (or not) as a group, not one at a time. So the OP scenario doesn’t arise.

If the group successfully evades the FK contacts nothing; there’s no conforming and there’s certainly no crabbing sideways!

[Hazelbark]

[Ramses II]

And conformation only takes place after movement of all units has taken place (including evades and charges), and so only occurs once. 

[Mark G Fry]

But if the Foot Knights are charging at such an angle as to have the Crossbows also as a potential target (even if that only occurs if they 'throw long') and they would hit the Crossbows on the flank, but they will conform to the front of the Crossbows ... which was my point if badly articulated.

[Neep]

My reading of page 44 is that the FKn cannot stop short and cause the second JMen unit to flee. You must move to the contact point even if the JMen will not stand there. This may be more of a clarification than a disagreement.
---
Mark, I do not believe the FKn may contact the flank of the LMI regardless of what angle they charge. They must angle to strike the front corner if they will try for contact (and may be stopped short by JMen's ZoC depending upon the geometry.)

[GG]

Thanks for all of that clarification. The foot knight charged forward at the Javs who evaded, the foot knights rolled normal and ended up in corner to corner contact with the second jav unit. They declared an intention to evade which they did. The text says that in the case of conforming to an enemy who can evade the conformation is done then the evade. So the foot knights moved a base over and the second javs fled. This left the foot knights in corner to corner contact with the crossbows …..which is where it all went pear shaped.

We reasoned that the foot knights had gone forward 1 then across a base width and really didn’t have any movement left to conform with the crossbows. However the foot knights had finished their charge move in corner to corner contact with an enemy so the question was whether they could conform again.

In the end we couldn’t work it out so we rewound to the charge, had both javelins evade which resulted in the foot knights in corner to corner contact with the medium knights who were half a base behind and to the left of the original diagram. They conformed, had a melee and got the stuffing knocked out of them (in hindsight fighting the crossbows would have been better).

As I said, thank you for your help with this.

[Mark G Fry]

[Zoltan]

@GG

Because the Medium Knights weren’t in your OP diagram I was unsure exactly where they were (albeit you had some text about them). Regardless, I reiterate my view:

1. FK declares charge (but does not move).

2. ALL enemy units that potentially can be contacted by the FK’s initial move forward are “the initial target of the charge”. Any decision by the initial target(s) to evade must be made NOW (before the FK has moved).

3. Because both javelinmen can be contacted by the FK, they must evade NOW, together as a group (before the FK has moved).

4. Your initial game play of evading one javelinman, moving the FK forward to contact the second javelinman, wanting to conform the FK, and then deciding to evade with the second javelinman was NOT correct.

5. Thus your question about the FK contacting the crossbowman (and conforming on them) should never have arisen. The FK do NOT crab across the table seemingly “managing to move a fair distance sideways”.

6. Your second gameplay was exactly right: both javelinmen must evade together, the FK charges forward after them, contacts the medium knight corner to corner, and now fully conforms FK to medium knight.

[Neep]

I don't believe the text says you conform first then the enemy evades, except on page 51. That is a very specific case where you find yourself in contact, but in neither melee or support position. Here you are charging into (corner to corner) contact, so will "conform after charge", except that the Jmen will have fled.

Kevin has answered this one well. The JMen do not have to evade together because:
A. The second JMen cannot be put into melee, unless the first evade. Thus they are secondary targets. There is the possibility (depending upon distances) that the FKn pull up short and never contact the second JMen.
B. Hervé has already stated somewhere on this forum that you may always evade eligible units individually. (That can lead to some silly mathematical optimization in extreme situations.)