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Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Robert241167
Archer
Inscrit le: 28 Mar 2015
Messages: 63
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 Posté le: Lun Juil 15, 2024 10:37 am Sujet du message: Wheeling whilst in contact with enemy battle line. |
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Hi there
Sorry I can't seem to get an image in.
Below is the position, friendly HF facing up table and Cav facing down table with Cav front edge aligned with rear edge of HF. Friendly LC ZOC'ing the Cav but not in Cav's ZOC.
As per Wheeling on page 31, units can only temporarily overlap adjacent friendly units during a wheel provided that they do not end their move overlapping them. Is it the clear intent for the Cav to be unable to wheel to charge the LC as it would temporarily overlap adjacent enemy units?
HFCavHF
LC
Thanks
Rob |
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Lun Juil 15, 2024 11:33 am Sujet du message: |
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I'm not sure what the issue is Rob?
There is nothing stopping the Cavalry wheeling and charging the rear corner of the LC base. Page 31 is clear on that point.
This charge is not counted as a Flank charge, as the Cavalry doesn't starts its charge behind the LCs flank. However, it is still a legal charge. That would also allow the rear corner of the Cavalry base to clear the base of the right-hand HF unit.
NB: the LC must be at a very particular and slight angle to the front of the Cavalry for it ZoC the Cavalry and not be ZoC'd by the Cavalry?
If the LC evades, then there is no issue regarding the Cavalry having to align to the front of the LC base, and it can (if you so desire) move it its minimum movement to clear the HF .
If the LC stands, as there is no room for the Cavalry to align to the front face of the LC (between the LC & the rear of the left-hand HF in front of it) Page 53 - 'Incomplete conformation' allows a situation where the Cavalry wheels & charge and if the LC stand to receive the charge the Cavalry move just enough to hit the LC and the melee is fought as if the Cavalry has hit the LC on its front. In the next turn (if the LC survives) it must conform to the front base edge of the Cavalry (but could also Disengage instead).
NB: I've tried just about every configuration of bases and cannot come up with a situation where the Cavalry hits the stationary LC and cannot clear the flanking HF? This is especially so if the LC are ZoC'ing the Cavalry.
I might be misinterpreting this.
Cheers
Mark
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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Mike Bennett
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Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Lun Juil 15, 2024 12:22 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | I'm not sure what the issue is Rob?
NB: I've tried just about every configuration of bases and cannot come up with a situation where the Cavalry hits the stationary LC and cannot clear the flanking HF? This is especially so if the LC are ZoC'ing the Cavalry.
I might be misinterpreting this.
Cheers
Mark |
Geometrically as the HC wheels it's front left corner stays in place and is rear right corner kicks out into the enemy HF.
Ps I think we are getting overly fixated on the geometry of fixed rectangular bases. Same debate for rear corners kicking out into ZoCs during a wheel. |
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Neep
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
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| Posté le: Lun Juil 15, 2024 10:00 pm Sujet du message: |
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Wasn't this just asked here or on FB?
If the Cv cannot reach the LC, then it is reasonable to consider the enemy HI "interposing" in the page 37 Special Case sense and allow the Cv to turn and attack the HI in the flank. |
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
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Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 16, 2024 10:58 am Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: | I'm not sure what the issue is Rob?
NB: I've tried just about every configuration of bases and cannot come up with a situation where the Cavalry hits the stationary LC and cannot clear the flanking HF? This is especially so if the LC are ZoC'ing the Cavalry.
I might be misinterpreting this.
Cheers
Mark |
Geometrically as the HC wheels it's front left corner stays in place and is rear right corner kicks out into the enemy HF.
Ps I think we are getting overly fixated on the geometry of fixed rectangular bases. Same debate for rear corners kicking out into ZoCs during a wheel. |
I totally agree Mike, but I don't think that is a problem - as Page 31 specifically states that it can do that, as long as the Cavalry doesn't end up with any part of its base 'overlapping' a friendly units base. But I can see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to unfriendly units.
But as I say, I've tried this with some basing sabots and cannot find anyway to deploy the LC that means that the LC not only ZoC the Cavalry but the Cavalry cannot clear the enemy HF once they contact the LC.
I'd also agree with Neep, that as the LC ZoC is partly blocked by the friendly HF, the Cavalry could simply turn onto the flank of the HF, as the LC are not to the front of the HC (or they would be ZoC'd by the Cavalry) and the Cavalry will still remain in the LC ZoC even if it turns onto the flank of the left hand HF.
Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1669
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 16, 2024 2:52 pm Sujet du message: |
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The rules are very clear, you cannot temporarily overlap and enemy unit.
There have been a number of discussions how to permit this, but to date none are in effect. One that came up at a European comp was later reviewed by some members of the DT and El Kreator. That proposal was not adopted because it had flaws.
So you still can't temporarily overlap an enemy unit. Which is what the rules have always said. |
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 16, 2024 6:05 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Hazelbark a écrit: | The rules are very clear, you cannot temporarily overlap and enemy unit.
There have been a number of discussions how to permit this, but to date none are in effect. One that came up at a European comp was later reviewed by some members of the DT and El Kreator. That proposal was not adopted because it had flaws.
So you still can't temporarily overlap an enemy unit. Which is what the rules have always said. |
Fair enough 
So the fact that the LC is ZoC'ing the enemy Cavalry is an irrelevance, although it does mean that the Cavalry is (in effect) trapped between the two enemy HF on each flank, unless it has the ability to evade out of the ZoC or retire?
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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Robert241167
Archer
Inscrit le: 28 Mar 2015
Messages: 63
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 16, 2024 9:26 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hi Mark
The Cavalry cannot turn on the flank of the heavy foot which is the whole purpose of the light cavalry zoc'ing them.
Rob |
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 17, 2024 12:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Robert241167 a écrit: | Hi Mark
The Cavalry cannot turn on the flank of the heavy foot which is the whole purpose of the light cavalry zoc'ing them.
Rob |
Yes. I can see that now Rob. So the Cavalry's only options are:
A) either that it Evades (if it can) - see P37 - paying 1CP to do so, or if it cannot Evade it must pay 2CPs and it falls back 2UDs, facing in the same direction it was originally facing and it receives a Disorder (if not already Disordered).
Or B) can it charge the LC - by advancing forwards and then making a up to a quarter or half turn (but not a wheel). Which would clear the HF on the right.
However, all the various (& highly complex) prohibitions on P37 might make it almost impossible to adjudicate whether such a charge was actually legal or not!
TBF - personally I think this is an over complex mechanism, that creates odd situations, and the idea that a unit of LC can create a ZoC on another unit through a friendly unit (whether it is a heavier unit or not) has always been more than slightly odd IMHO and you end up with weird stuff like this being generated.
But 'the rules are the rules' (I suppose).
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 17, 2024 12:59 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: |
TBF - personally I think this is an over complex mechanism, that creates odd situations, and the idea that a unit of LC can create a ZoC on another unit through a friendly unit (whether it is a heavier unit or not) has always been more than slightly odd IMHO and you end up with weird stuff like this being generated.
But 'the rules are the rules' (I suppose). |
Reading Dan's explanation, I suspect that this one of those relatively obscure occurrences that are inevitable in any game system with "square" bases, and it will be resolved and go away once the DT manage to come up with a solution that doesn't create more problems than it solves.
In the interim I would suggest that it's incumbent upon players to try to avoid the temptation to deliberately engineer such situations to their advantage - if it happens accidentally, so be it, but everyone seem to feel that it does have a faint whiff of fromage ..which could grow far stronger if done deliberately.
At the end of the day its a glitch that will be fixed, and so while playing "to" the rules is of course something we should all accept without complaint, playing "with" the rules is not a road I hope anyone wants to go down.
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www.madaxeman.com
Dernière édition par madaxeman le Mer Juil 17, 2024 8:27 pm; édité 1 fois |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1669
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 17, 2024 3:41 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: |
Or B) can it charge the LC - by advancing forwards and then making a up to a quarter or half turn (but not a wheel). Which would clear the HF on the right.
However, all the various (& highly complex) prohibitions on P37 might make it almost impossible to adjudicate whether such a charge was actually legal or not!
TBF - personally I think this is an over complex mechanism, that creates odd situations, and the idea that a unit of LC can create a ZoC on another unit through a friendly unit (whether it is a heavier unit or not) has always been more than slightly odd IMHO and you end up with weird stuff like this being generated.
But 'the rules are the rules' (I suppose). |
B can not be done as a charge. It can move to a better position. Then charge in a future turn.
LC Zoc were brought back in v4 (they did not exist in v3). THere are always comments on this. In v3 the consideration was LC not having ZOC made them ineffectual. Then add every player has their own vision of what LC. For some it is a loose assortment of people with no rhyme or rhythem. To others they are low troop qty. Others they are a battle formation that just isn't good at close combat.
ZOCs through a friendly unit are long established. Friendly LI in front of EL do not block the EL zoc.
What you have is a situation where one side wants to be able to easily fix a problem. It is natural that i should be able to fix problems i don't like. Human nature.
Consider the inverse. The CV gets to add one for simple support. Potentially on two sides. The CV is immune from harm. The CV is in a position where it can be ordered to fall on the enemy flank, infliciting cohesion and zeroing the CF of the enemy. So that is a lot of advantages. And now the CV wants additional advantages to engage anyone coming to inhibit its opportunities for mayhem.
I don't think this is broken. |
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Mark G Fry
Légat
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 17, 2024 8:44 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hi Dan
Comments/questions/observations below in bold (NB: I am not shouting )
| Hazelbark a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: |
Or B) can it charge the LC - by advancing forwards and then making a up to a quarter or half turn (but not a wheel). Which would clear the HF on the right.
However, all the various (& highly complex) prohibitions on P37 might make it almost impossible to adjudicate whether such a charge was actually legal or not!
TBF - personally I think this is an over complex mechanism, that creates odd situations, and the idea that a unit of LC can create a ZoC on another unit through a friendly unit (whether it is a heavier unit or not) has always been more than slightly odd IMHO and you end up with weird stuff like this being generated.
But 'the rules are the rules' (I suppose). |
B can not be done as a charge. It can move to a better position. Then charge in a future turn.
> but I'm now not even sure that an advance can be done, as it would immediately take the Cav units front base edge out of the LC ZoC and the phrase "No point of the units front edge that was in the ZoC can leave it" on P36 prohibits that.
LC Zoc were brought back in v4 (they did not exist in v3). There are always comments on this. In v3 the consideration was LC not having ZOC made them ineffectual. Then add every player has their own vision of what LC. For some it is a loose assortment of people with no rhyme or rhythm. To others they are low troop qty. Others they are a battle formation that just isn't good at close combat.
> improving the effectiveness of LC in v4 is a noble objective - but I'm not sure that what is being illustrated in this example is actually an improvement. I have learnt to 'live' with the idea that LC can ZoC other heavier units, many of which would historically probably have ignored LC as a threat. But here we have an oddity whereby the LC is (in effect) screened by the friendly HF in such a way as to make it invulnerable, which I just cannot see happening, other than as a game mechanism result.
>Also, the fact that the unit in question is LC is actually clouding the debate here and leading us off down other avenues. It could just as easily be an enemy Cav unit or MF or Levy or almost any other enemy unit other than LF (in the open), Artillery or War wagons etc.
The issue in the question (I think) is actually about whether one unit can throw out a ZoC through another friendly unit - which it can do within the rules - and whether this is actually a good mechanism or not. Regardless of it having been a longstanding mechanism both in ADLG and in other rules sets - such as DBA, for example.
> With regards to the definition of LC, the rules state on P15 exactly what LC are and (I quote) they are: "unprotected cavalry, usually equipped with missile weapons and used to harass the enemy. They fight in an open formation allowing them to move quickly and evade the enemy". Poor or low quality denser formation of mounted troops are classified as Cav mediocre, surely?
ZOCs through a friendly unit are long established. Friendly LI in front of EL do not block the EL zoc.
> I can agree with a ZoC through a Light unit by a Heavier friendly unit (elephants or HF etc. through LF, Cav/Knights/Cats through LC) but Lights exerting ZoC's through heavier troops doesn't seem realistic and I'm not really convinced it is a sensible game mechanism. All it appears to be doing in this situation, which is not unique - as I have had it done to me in a competition previously - is allow a gamey move that paralyzes the Cav unrealistically
What you have is a situation where one side wants to be able to easily fix a problem. It is natural that i should be able to fix problems i don't like. Human nature.
> I'm not sure it is about 'fixing' something to one person's advantage Dan. IMHO here we are witnessing an obvious abuse of a rule to favour a player who is using that rule to effectively stop the Cav from charging the LC and also preventing the Cav from charging either of the 2 flanking enemy HF in the flank.
Consider the inverse. The CV gets to add one for simple support. Potentially on two sides. The CV is immune from harm. The CV is in a position where it can be ordered to fall on the enemy flank, infliciting cohesion and zeroing the CF of the enemy. So that is a lot of advantages. And now the CV wants additional advantages to engage anyone coming to inhibit its opportunities for mayhem.
> but the Cav wont get any support from the 2 HF (assuming they are now friendly to the Cav) as they are not orientated in the same direction as the Cav. And the Cav still cannot charge the enemy LC as (according to Rob's example) its rear edge cannot clear the rear edge of the right-hand HF when it hits the enemy LC.
So we are back to the same problem as previously.
If the HF were friendly and were facing the same direction as their friendly Cav, there isn't an issue as the LC is in the ZoC of the left-hand HF and so that is its most threatening enemy. So the Cav can advance out of the LC ZoC (assuming that somehow the LC ZoC can include the Cav as well as the left-hand HF) and can position itself with a quarter turn, to position itself to flank the LC. However the Cav still cannot charge the LC, unless it moves forwards and even then the LC can always evade if charged, by either the HF or the Cav.
> NB: I think you might be confused by the example. In the example quoted by Rob - both the HF are enemy units to the Cav unit between them, and are orientated to be facing away from the Cav unit, in the same direction as their friendly LC.
I don't think this is broken. |
I beg to differ - but as I state above - the rules are (currently) the rules 
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis
Dernière édition par Mark G Fry le Mer Juil 17, 2024 9:20 pm; édité 1 fois |
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 573
Localisation: Bristol, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 17, 2024 8:46 pm Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: |
TBF - personally I think this is an over complex mechanism, that creates odd situations, and the idea that a unit of LC can create a ZoC on another unit through a friendly unit (whether it is a heavier unit or not) has always been more than slightly odd IMHO and you end up with weird stuff like this being generated.
But 'the rules are the rules' (I suppose). |
Reading Dan's explanation, I suspect that this one of those relatively obscure occurrences that are inevitable in any game system with "square" bases, and it will be resolved and go away once the DT manage to come up with a solution that doesn't create more problems than it solves.
In the interim I would suggest that it's incumbent upon players to try to avoid the temptation to deliberately engineer such situations to their advantage - if it happens accidentally, so be it, but everyone seem to feel that it does have a faint whiff of fromage ..which could grow far stronger if done deliberately.
At the end of the day its a glitch that will be fixed, and so while playing "to" the rules is of course something we should all accept without complaint, playing "with" the rules is not a road I hope anyone wants to go down. |
A very sensible and practical approach Tim but are the 'powers that be' actually considering this as an issue? From Dan's comments that may not be the case 
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1599
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 17, 2024 9:12 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mark G Fry a écrit: | | madaxeman a écrit: | | Mark G Fry a écrit: |
TBF - personally I think this is an over complex mechanism, that creates odd situations, and the idea that a unit of LC can create a ZoC on another unit through a friendly unit (whether it is a heavier unit or not) has always been more than slightly odd IMHO and you end up with weird stuff like this being generated.
But 'the rules are the rules' (I suppose). |
Reading Dan's explanation, I suspect that this one of those relatively obscure occurrences that are inevitable in any game system with "square" bases, and it will be resolved and go away once the DT manage to come up with a solution that doesn't create more problems than it solves.
In the interim I would suggest that it's incumbent upon players to try to avoid the temptation to deliberately engineer such situations to their advantage - if it happens accidentally, so be it, but everyone seem to feel that it does have a faint whiff of fromage ..which could grow far stronger if done deliberately.
At the end of the day its a glitch that will be fixed, and so while playing "to" the rules is of course something we should all accept without complaint, playing "with" the rules is not a road I hope anyone wants to go down. |
A very sensible and practical approach Tim but are the 'powers that be' actually considering this as an issue? From Dan's comments that may not be the case |
Even if not my main point still stands...
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Mike Bennett
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Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 583
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 17, 2024 9:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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| DBMM (I think ,although it was a while ago, so might have been DBM) had a limitation that if you were passing through a 1 UD gap between 2 enemy units you had to go straight forward or backwards for you entire movement. A sensible limitation as you would not do anything fancy in limited space in close proximity to the enemy. It would solve this wheeling base issue, |
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