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elsleyra
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Inscrit le: 13 Sep 2022
Messages: 28
Localisation: Newcastle, Australia
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 Posté le: Mar Sep 17, 2024 12:38 am Sujet du message: Sliding to reduce evade distance |
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The group AABBB chooses to evade to its rear. To its rear is an obstacle shown as 112233445566 - either units AABB is unable to interpenetrate or terrain that AABB doesn’t have sufficient adjusted evade movement to enter. However, the distance to the edge of the obstacle is equal to or greater than the adjusted evade move distance less 1UD. Note that the obstacle is sufficiently wide that a slide of 1UD or less would still leave the obstacle in front of each evading unit.
Is it permitted for each of units AA and BB to execute a slide (of less than or equal to 1UD) to reduce its move distance so that it finishes short of the obstacle even though the obstacle is still directly in front of it? ie Can the units avoid the need to wheel, still move their full adjusted evade move distance and finish up as a group?
Starts as
xxxxAABBxxxx
112233445566
Finishes as
xxxxxxAABBxx
112233445566 |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 646
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Mar Sep 17, 2024 2:20 am Sujet du message: |
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| No, I don’t think so. Evaders do not avoid terrain that slows them. They only deviate around terrain they are prohibited from entering, such as impassable, flooded rivers or chariots into difficult. |
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elsleyra
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Inscrit le: 13 Sep 2022
Messages: 28
Localisation: Newcastle, Australia
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| Posté le: Mar Sep 17, 2024 9:56 am Sujet du message: |
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| KevinD a écrit: | | No, I don’t think so. Evaders do not avoid terrain that slows them. They only deviate around terrain they are prohibited from entering, such as impassable, flooded rivers or chariots into difficult. |
The issue can arise where the movement distance is less in terrain than it is in the open. Eg Cavalry or Light Cavalry move 1UD less if the move includes any component in rough terrain. So such an evading unit with an adjusted evade move of 4UD in open terrain can only move 3UD if it enters rough terrain. If it starts more than 3UD from the rough terrain it can’t enter the rough terrain, but if it starts less than 4UD from the rough terrain it will not have moved its full adjusted movement allowance if it stops at the edge of the rough terrain.
There’s also the interesting 3rd dot point under ‘Second case: Evade blocked by an obstacle’ viz “If the evading unit starts within one UD of rough or difficult terrain it cannot slide to avoid it, so must enter the terrain. Is movement distance is reduced accordingly.†This would appear to imply that the evading unit could slide to avoid such terrain if it started more that 1UD from the terrain. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1235
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mar Sep 17, 2024 12:39 pm Sujet du message: |
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No. As KevinD says, evading units may not avoid terrain that penalizes its adjusted move distance.Â
The unit may only change its direction to avoid an obstacle (P48) | Citation: | | After any change in orientation, the evading unit has enemy units, friendly units that it cannot interpenetrate or an impassable terrain |
In the case you cite, the evading unit(s) just stop at the edge of the penalizing terrain, which may result in being caught. |
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Neep
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
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| Posté le: Mar Sep 17, 2024 2:09 pm Sujet du message: |
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(I really wish this clarification would be added to the errata. The text elsleyra cites implies you can avoid terrain in other circumstances.)
In the case of impenetrable friends, I believe it is required that, if you can avoid them by shifting, you make the minimal shift needed. |
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elsleyra
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Inscrit le: 13 Sep 2022
Messages: 28
Localisation: Newcastle, Australia
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| Posté le: Mar Sep 17, 2024 10:45 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | No. As KevinD says, evading units may not avoid terrain that penalizes its adjusted move distance.Â
The unit may only change its direction to avoid an obstacle (P48) | Citation: | | After any change in orientation, the evading unit has enemy units, friendly units that it cannot interpenetrate or an impassable terrain |
In the case you cite, the evading unit(s) just stop at the edge of the penalizing terrain, which may result in being caught. |
So I understand your first point to mean that "impassable terrain" in this context means only Impassable terrain per p70 and not to mean "terrain that the unit cannot enter".
I understand your further comment to mean that in this case we must ignore the first sentence under 5 - Evade move "An evading unit moves ... its maximum adjusted evade distance." I assume that we are to do likewise if an evading unit has insufficient adjusted evade distance to execute an interpenetration but more adjusted evade distance than is required to reach the front of the unit it would interpenetrate if it could. I am surprised, as in most such cases it would be possible for an evading unit to execute a wheel so that it did move its maximum adjusted evade distance.
Are there other circumstances where an evading unit may choose to move less than its maximum adjusted evade distance? |
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Neep
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 09 Jan 2023
Messages: 298
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| Posté le: Mar Sep 17, 2024 11:00 pm Sujet du message: |
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I think you are running into a common confusion about interpenetration. You must be able - have room and distance - to pass fully through the friends. Otherwise they are "impenetrable". Therefore you do slide or wheel if you cannot get through.
The instance that you touch terrain, your MA drops to the allowance for that terrain. So you are essentially moving your full MA. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1235
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mer Sep 18, 2024 12:25 am Sujet du message: |
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| elsleyra a écrit: | | Ramses II a écrit: | No. As KevinD says, evading units may not avoid terrain that penalizes its adjusted move distance.Â
The unit may only change its direction to avoid an obstacle (P48) | Citation: | | After any change in orientation, the evading unit has enemy units, friendly units that it cannot interpenetrate or an impassable terrain |
In the case you cite, the evading unit(s) just stop at the edge of the penalizing terrain, which may result in being caught. |
So I understand your first point to mean that "impassable terrain" in this context means only Impassable terrain per p70 and not to mean "terrain that the unit cannot enter". |
Correct. As Neep says, because the movement allowance is reduced by terrain, the unit is deemed to have moved its full allowance.Â
Â
| Citation: | I understand your further comment to mean that in this case we must ignore the first sentence under 5 - Evade move "An evading unit moves ... its maximum adjusted evade distance." I assume that we are to do likewise if an evading unit has insufficient adjusted evade distance to execute an interpenetration but more adjusted evade distance than is required to reach the front of the unit it would interpenetrate if it could. I am surprised, as in most such cases it would be possible for an evading unit to execute a wheel so that it did move its maximum adjusted evade distance.
Are there other circumstances where an evading unit may choose to move less than its maximum adjusted evade distance? |
No. Evaders are always required to attempt to move their full adjusted move allowance. With respect to interpretation, P39 states
If the movement distance is too short to cross the unit at least partially, or if there is not enough space to adjust the positions of the units involved, the interpenetration is not allowed. In this case this is treated like an obstacle and the evader may slide then wheel to get around it. |
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elsleyra
Barbare
Inscrit le: 13 Sep 2022
Messages: 28
Localisation: Newcastle, Australia
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| Posté le: Jeu Sep 19, 2024 12:14 am Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: |
Correct. As Neep says, because the movement allowance is reduced by terrain, the unit is deemed to have moved its full allowance. |
Â
Does this mean that the evaders are treated as in the slowing terrain ... for their next move for instance? |
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elsleyra
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Inscrit le: 13 Sep 2022
Messages: 28
Localisation: Newcastle, Australia
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| Posté le: Jeu Sep 19, 2024 12:20 am Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | ... With respect to interpretation, P39 states
If the movement distance is too short to cross the unit at least partially, or if there is not enough space to adjust the positions of the units involved, the interpenetration is not allowed. In this case this is treated like an obstacle and the evader may slide then wheel to get around it. |
Which leads me to the original question of whether or not evaders can use a slide in such circumstances to reduce their evade move distance but still end up with their original facing and still in front of units they can't interpenetrate. ie they haven't 'got around' the obstacle, just shifted sideways in front of it. |
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KevinD
Légat
Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 646
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Jeu Sep 19, 2024 12:26 am Sujet du message: |
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| elsleyra a écrit: | | Ramses II a écrit: |
Correct. As Neep says, because the movement allowance is reduced by terrain, the unit is deemed to have moved its full allowance. |
Â
Does this mean that the evaders are treated as in the slowing terrain ... for their next move for instance? |
No, they are not. |
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KevinD
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Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
Messages: 646
Localisation: Texas
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| Posté le: Jeu Sep 19, 2024 12:31 am Sujet du message: |
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| elsleyra a écrit: | | Ramses II a écrit: | ... With respect to interpretation, P39 states
If the movement distance is too short to cross the unit at least partially, or if there is not enough space to adjust the positions of the units involved, the interpenetration is not allowed. In this case this is treated like an obstacle and the evader may slide then wheel to get around it. |
Which leads me to the original question of whether or not evaders can use a slide in such circumstances to reduce their evade move distance but still end up with their original facing and still in front of units they can't interpenetrate. ie they haven't 'got around' the obstacle, just shifted sideways in front of it. |
They do slide (even partially) to try to avoid impenetrable friends. (Including apparently impenetrable because they can’t at least partially cross.) But not they must have a path after doing no more than a 1 UD slide, if not they wheel.
They do not slide (even partially) to avoid terrain they are allowed to enter but lack the movement allowance to enter. |
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elsleyra
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Inscrit le: 13 Sep 2022
Messages: 28
Localisation: Newcastle, Australia
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| Posté le: Jeu Sep 19, 2024 1:27 am Sujet du message: |
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| KevinD a écrit: | | elsleyra a écrit: | | Ramses II a écrit: |
Correct. As Neep says, because the movement allowance is reduced by terrain, the unit is deemed to have moved its full allowance. |
Â
Does this mean that the evaders are treated as in the slowing terrain ... for their next move for instance? |
No, they are not. |
Movement allowance, p29: "If the unit moves, even partially, through different types of terrain the unit uses the lowest relevant movement allowance." The evaders in this case have not entered or moved through the slowing terrain, so their movement allowance is based on that for open terrain ... and they have not moved their maximum adjusted evade distance. The convention, however, is that they are treated as having done so.
I think it's a sensible convention. My problem was just that it's an unwritten one. It is neither explicit nor, in my opinion, implied in the rules. I suspect it's a legacy of the previous wording of the first sentence under 5 - Evade move, p48: "An evading unit moves in a straight line up to its maximum adjusted evade distance." with an amendment having subsequently removed the words "up to". |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1235
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Jeu Sep 19, 2024 5:49 pm Sujet du message: |
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This is a ‘chicken & egg’ or ‘catch22’ style problem.Â
When evading, the unit must move its maximum adjusted distance, which may be reduced by passing through terrain.
As soon as the unit touches the terrain, its allowance is reduced - but it has not entered the terrain so the allowance is not reduced - but that means the unit must enter the terrain whereupon its allowance will be reduced . . .Â
You are correct that this has ultimately resulted in one of several such ‘conventions’. These are also unwritten; the rules assume a degree of intelligence and that people play as much to the spirit of the rules as the letter. The rules would become very lengthy and probably less playable if every wrinkle and situation were described in detail. |
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elsleyra
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Inscrit le: 13 Sep 2022
Messages: 28
Localisation: Newcastle, Australia
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| Posté le: Ven Sep 20, 2024 1:35 am Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | This is a ‘chicken & egg’ or ‘catch22’ style problem.Â
When evading, the unit must move its maximum adjusted distance, which may be reduced by passing through terrain.
As soon as the unit touches the terrain, its allowance is reduced - but it has not entered the terrain so the allowance is not reduced - but that means the unit must enter the terrain whereupon its allowance will be reduced . . .Â
You are correct that this has ultimately resulted in one of several such ‘conventions’. These are also unwritten; the rules assume a degree of intelligence and that people play as much to the spirit of the rules as the letter. The rules would become very lengthy and probably less playable if every wrinkle and situation were described in detail. |
There may be opportunity in future to change the problematic 3rd dot point under ‘Second case: Evade blocked by an obstacle’ p48 viz “If the evading unit starts within one UD of rough or difficult terrain it cannot slide to avoid it, so must enter the terrain. Its movement distance is reduced accordingly.†to something to something that removes the apparent implication that it can be avoided if the unit starts more than 1UD away. Perhaps something like “If an evading unit starts moves towards rough or difficult terrain it cannot manoeuvre to avoid it, so must enter the terrain with its movement distance reduced accordingly or stop at the edge of the terrain if it unable to enter it.†|
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