Art De La Guerre

[KevinD]

1. Can an individually based commander (non-CinC) not part of a unit ambush? (The 8th bullet on p 77 implies he can, but does this include individually based commanders?
2. If so does he count as one of the 4 units allowed to ambush, or is he additional beyond the limit of 4 ambushing units per ambush marker?
3. There is a requirement that all units not in ambush be deployed in command range. If the general (whether included or not) is ambushing, but some of his troops are not, where do you figure that command range from for those not ambushing? The ambush marker or where the commander will actually be (or even could be) after revealed?
4. Can a general in ambush spend CPs on his non-ambushing troops? If so, where do you figure the command range from?
5. Do you have to declare the ambushed general type (ability, unreliable or ally) when you roll his die or not? Or is this not declared until he is actually revealed?

[SteveR]

Thank you for asking my opinion. I love to share it.

1. Yes
2. No
3. IMHO you cannot do that. A general in ambush is not on the table. Therefore other units cannot ever deploy in command range.

I mean an alternate interpretation would have the other units be within 4 UD (or whatever) of one of the ambush markers. But this involves a common sense interpretation and is not in the rules though I wish it would be.

But the general in ambush not being on the table has been implicated in other decisions on here so I think it is the way to go.

4. Don't be silly. He is not there yet.

5. Nope. I played a game where a guy ran an unreliable general on a flank march. Rolled a 1 first turn. I only found out about it when he rolled a 6 and said he could not come on yet as this just meant he was now reliable.

See the last sentence of page 78 Sequence of Deployment. You define things a the time of placement. The general is not placed until he is placed.

[KevinD]

Thanks, Steve. That’s sort of how I saw it, though I am iffy about 3. Allowing a general in ambush if only some of his troops are ambushing opens the door to many scary things…

[Mark G Fry]

[SteveR]

Hi Mark,

I did identify that as an alternate interpretation. Supporting it is the recent errata to page 69 allowing troops in ambush to be included in army cohesion. Tellingly the line talks about presence on the table.

However I disagree with you regarding asymmetry of visibility. Take a look at page 70 - "all units physically present on the table are considered to be known to the enemy" I don't think troops can/should be on the table for one player and not present for the other.

But I do wish this would be clarified, especially with the change to page 69.

How do you handle the command range of the general? Given that the general's ability is not usually defined to an opponent until after placement on the table?

[KevinD]

This can be even trickier if there are multiple ambush locations. Where is the general measuring from? What is his ability? For example, you roll a 2 and want to move a non-light who is 4 UD from the nearest ambush marker but 8 UD from the further one. Can you make the move because the general is in the closer spot and you only need to spend 1 CP or can you make the move because it is a Competent General in the further spot who has 2 CPs to spend or because it is a Brilliant General with an 8 UD command range? It seems reasonable for your opponent to want to check your math as you do the moves and not you just saying “Trust me bro, I got this.” And how do you even know they deployed in command range to start with? Or does the exception for deploying troops in ambush out of command range mean it’s ok to deploy troops anywhere if their general is in ambush?

[Neep]

The question of command range of a general in ambush came up before somewhere, and there was no concensus.

[Ramses II]

Given the text on pp7,8,27 an independent commander is actually treated as a separate unit, though many / most people ignore this definition. 
As a consequence, if included in an ambush the commander should occupy one of the four ‘spaces’ of the ambush. That said the commander must at least be in contact with the other units. 

As others note, there is no text about determining command range to an invisible commander. However, I suggest that to be clear to both players, the commander (and by extension the rest of the ambush) must be revealed. This overcomes the other issues raised.

[SteveR]

[Mark G Fry]

Again, we've played it that an independent (not included) Command unit is not a unit and therefore doesn't count towards the 4 units per ambush marker.

The whole business about within Command radius is a can of worms as regards Ambushes.
If a Corps has 4 units and those 4 units are in Ambush but their Commander is not, are they within Command distance if, as one hypothesis goes, units in Ambush are not on the table? It's just rule semantics folks.

Surely, the common sense approach is that:
a) Generals are not units
b) not included Generals can be included in ambushes in addition to the max 4 units allowable in the ambush
c) all units in ambush are on the table and that the ambush marker(s) must be within Command distance of their respective Commanders.

That makes for an easily understood and playable approach.
Cheers
Mark
_________________
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

[KevinD]

P 78 (3rd bullet) specifically says “All units (unless in ambush) must be in command range…”

Edit - to be clear I am only disputing Mark’s point c) here that Ambush Markers need to be within command range. Points a) and b) seem reasonable to me, though I’m not sure (in that I don’t have an opinion one way or the other right now) if they are correct.

[Neep]

Ahem, generals as units. There is a very good counterargument in the 5th bullet on p. 27.

[KevinD]

To be clear I am only disputing point c) of Mark’s post above.

Need’s referencing re. p27 bullet 5 is a good point. (“ An individually based commander does not count as a unit…”)

[SteveR]

It seems like that 5th bullet does strongly suggest that independent generals are not units. I missed that earlier, but now see that the phrase "An independently based commander does not count as a unit..." could be read to mean that they are not units.

Mark, I don't think the way you are playing it is unreasonable, I am just not confident it is what the author intends or the rules say. Let me ask you - do you require the General to be placed with the unit which is placed on the ambush marker? Since you are measuring from that point I mean.

[Mark G Fry]