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Elephant pursuit
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Andy Fyfe
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 22, 2025 11:41 am    Sujet du message: Elephant pursuit Répondre en citant
Hi Guys,

An elephant has destroyed a unit in its melee turn.

There is terrain which would penalise the elephant in combat about half an UD in front of it.

Does the elephant:

1. Stay in place and not pursue
2. Pursue as far as the penalising terrain

p69 pursuit:

Elephants and Impetuous units that do pursue must move directly forward one complete UD.

Pursuit is mandatory for elephants and Impetuous units except in the following cases:
Pursuit would result in the unit exiting the table or entering terrain that would penalise it in combat


I think the elephant stays in place and does not pursue as it cannot comply with both of the above requirements.

Andy
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 23, 2025 6:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Without extensive study, my gut says the Elephant pursues until it hits the edge of the terrain then halts. That is based on how the conforming rules work, but i don't believe we have anything specific so rulings may vary.
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Mark G Fry
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 23, 2025 6:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Without extensive study, my gut says the Elephant pursues until it hits the edge of the terrain then halts. That is based on how the conforming rules work, but i don't believe we have anything specific so rulings may vary.


We had a similar situation at a UK competition earlier in the year, where a unit of MF impetuous had destroyed its opponent and its compulsory pursuit move would have taken it off table. The Umpire ruled that it had to move the maximum it could do, but still remained on table.
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 23, 2025 9:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mark G Fry a écrit:
Hazelbark a écrit:
Without extensive study, my gut says the Elephant pursues until it hits the edge of the terrain then halts. That is based on how the conforming rules work, but i don't believe we have anything specific so rulings may vary.


We had a similar situation at a UK competition earlier in the year, where a unit of MF impetuous had destroyed its opponent and its compulsory pursuit move would have taken it off table. The Umpire ruled that it had to move the maximum it could do, but still remained on table.


which is essentially what i am saying.
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Mark G Fry
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 23, 2025 9:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Mark G Fry a écrit:
Hazelbark a écrit:
Without extensive study, my gut says the Elephant pursues until it hits the edge of the terrain then halts. That is based on how the conforming rules work, but i don't believe we have anything specific so rulings may vary.


We had a similar situation at a UK competition earlier in the year, where a unit of MF impetuous had destroyed its opponent and its compulsory pursuit move would have taken it off table. The Umpire ruled that it had to move the maximum it could do, but still remained on table.


which is essentially what i am saying.


I am agreeing with you Dan Very Happy
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 23, 2025 10:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The literal wording says the pursuit is no longer mandatory, not that it must pursue some other distance. However, if it should then choose to make a non-mandatory pursuit it must go the full UD.

“Elephants and Impetuous units that do pursue must move directly forward one complete UD.

Pursuit is mandatory for elephants and Impetuous units except in the following cases:
1….
2. Pursuit would result in the unit citing the table or entering terrain that would penalize it in combat,
3….
4….
5….â€

Note that there are four other conditions under which pursuit is not mandatory and none of these imply pursuing less than an UD.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 24, 2025 7:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
The literal wording says the pursuit is no longer mandatory, not that it must pursue some other distance. However, if it should then choose to make a non-mandatory pursuit it must go the full UD.“


Of course whether it was the intention is a different question.

NB if the elephant has to pursue up until it touches the terrain it leaves it very exposed. An enemy could go into melee with it whilst still lining the terrain edge, if it has a straight edge, eg. A plantation or BUA. In that case the elephant would take the combat disadvantage.
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Mark G Fry
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 24, 2025 9:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[quote="Mike Bennett"]
KevinD a écrit:

NB if the elephant has to pursue up until it touches the terrain it leaves it very exposed. An enemy could go into melee with it whilst still lining the terrain edge, if it has a straight edge, eg. A plantation or BUA. In that case the elephant would take the combat disadvantage.


Would it Mike?
The elephant has not entered the terrain - so it is fighting in the open ... or is there some lengthy & protracted thread that I've missed that has argued that even though it is bimbling about in the open on the edge of the wood (etc) and its attackers are in the terrain it somehow fights at a disadvantage, especially as it would be its attacker that initiates the melee (most probably) Shocked Confused
Cheers
Mark
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 24, 2025 9:47 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I thought it was in a clarification or errata, but I cannot find it at the moment. Maybe I am imagining it, old age, or rugby bangs to the head, are a terrible thing for the mind
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 24, 2025 3:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
I thought it was in a clarification or errata, but I cannot find it at the moment. Maybe I am imagining it, old age, or rugby bangs to the head, are a terrible thing for the mind


You have flipped it.

p 64
Terrain
bullet 3
"the attacking unit is considered to partially enter the enemy's terrain"
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 24, 2025 6:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dan, does “attacking unit†here mean the unit that moved into contact?

So if my HI is outside the village but right at the edge and an enemy LI moves up to contact it (while remaining entirely in the village) the LI routes (or is prevented from moving there) because it is entering the open terrain outsides the village?


Start:

LI
Village edge
HI


to:

LIVillageEdge
HI
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Mark G Fry
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Avr 24, 2025 8:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
Dan, does “attacking unit†here mean the unit that moved into contact?

So if my HI is outside the village but right at the edge and an enemy LI moves up to contact it (while remaining entirely in the village) the LI routes (or is prevented from moving there) because it is entering the open terrain outsides the village?


Start:

LI
Village edge
HI


to:

LIVillageEdge
HI


But in the case of the pursuing Elephant it cannot enter certain terrain without a penalty so it must stop before entering it - therefore it is not in it.
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'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Sam Avr 26, 2025 3:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mark G Fry a écrit:
But in the case of the pursuing Elephant it cannot enter certain terrain without a penalty so it must stop before entering it - therefore it is not in it.


Agreed, but the elephant does not need to actually enter to count the disadvantage if the enemy is lining the edge. However I interpret "attack" to say that the disadvantage only applies if the unit outside moved to contact, and not vice versa
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 28, 2025 1:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
Dan, does “attacking unit†here mean the unit that moved into contact?

So if my HI is outside the village but right at the edge and an enemy LI moves up to contact it (while remaining entirely in the village) the LI routes (or is prevented from moving there) because it is entering the open terrain outsides the village?


Yes

Prevented moving there per rules.
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Neep
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 29, 2025 4:12 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I would assume the attacking unit is the active unit.
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