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Scythed Chariots
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PHGamer
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 16 Juin 2016
Messages: 139
Localisation: Pennsylvannia
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 01, 2017 9:37 pm    Sujet du message: Scythed Chariots Répondre en citant
I am thinking about building a Pontic (Mithradaties) army and that is leading me to read up on the rules for Scythed chariots.
I have verified a number of things and wanted to post this list for commentary and correction. Do not take any of this as codex.
Scythed Chariots are impetuous and unmaneuverable. They cannot make 90 and 180 degree turns. They move 4 IU’s and have one cohesion point. They do not get a +1 impact bonus for being impetuous.
Can Scythed Chariots be part of a group? They can only form a group with themselves.
Can Scythed Chariots be interpenetrated or interpenetrate? Yes, normal rules with regard to mounted interpenetrated/interpenetrating LI and LH.
Can Scythed Chariots count as support? Yes
Can Scythed Chariots have support? Yes
When in melee, do Scythed Chariots count support against them? Not on first round of contact.
In melee, Scythed Chariots have a zero basic combat factor but so do their opponents. On this I am not what exactly counts and what does not.
Certainly all the basic factors, like +1 vs all and the impact + is negated by this rule. But do the modifiers count? Like uphill or disordered? I think they count.
Do Scythed Chariots count as units for army breakpoints? No, per page 18.
Do Scythed Chariots count uncontrolled charge if they charge without a command point? I think yes.
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Dernière édition par PHGamer le Mar Jan 03, 2017 3:52 pm; édité 1 fois
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PHGamer
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 16 Juin 2016
Messages: 139
Localisation: Pennsylvannia
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 01, 2017 10:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Scythed Chariots are expendable and do not count towards army cohesion as stated on page 18. Thanks to Alex Kara for pointing this out.
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Phil
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Dernière édition par PHGamer le Mar Jan 03, 2017 3:50 pm; édité 1 fois
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daveallen
Signifer


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 348
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 03, 2017 6:54 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Also remember that Scythed Chariots get Furious Charge against infantry.

Dave
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PHGamer
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 16 Juin 2016
Messages: 139
Localisation: Pennsylvannia
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 03, 2017 7:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Most of my questions have been answered, but a few remain.
Do units get abilities, like mounted impact, when facing Scythed Chariots on the first round, or are they all set to zero?
Do modifiers like disorder or up hill take effect, or are they all set to zero?
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Japanese telephones work pretty much like ours, except the person on the other end can't understand you.


Dernière édition par PHGamer le Mer Jan 04, 2017 6:27 pm; édité 1 fois
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 3152
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 03, 2017 8:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
the base value of schyted chariot is to lowering ennemies bases figthting factor( execpt lights, LMI, WWG and elephants ) to zero and no support.
Chariots are impetuous without impact but with furious charge. AND THAT'S ALL
This is means:
The lowering factor and cancelling support is only valuable in first melee round.
All terrains effects applies even tophill.
Armor effect applies if mounted opponent. The furious charge cancells foot armour in first round.
Disorder applies, so a disordered apponent has -1 factor, if not light, lmi and so on.
Javelin, 2HW, and all capacities not cancelled by furious charge aplies.
Don't forget the die of expendable cause 1 disorder to all friends units in one UD rear.
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PHGamer
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 16 Juin 2016
Messages: 139
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 04, 2017 12:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So you are saying only Basic factors are set to zero. Abilities (pg16-1Cool DO count, and Melee Modifiers (page 55). Ok, I can work with that. Thanks!
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 3152
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 04, 2017 11:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
PHGamer a écrit:
So you are saying only Basic factors are set to zero. Abilities (pg16-1Cool DO count, and Melee Modifiers (page 55). Ok, I can work with that. Thanks!

But LI and javelinmen have no penalty again sch. IE, jevelinmen have 1 bases factor, +1 for javelin, SCH remaining at 0.
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daveallen
Signifer


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 348
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 04, 2017 11:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
(pg 16-18 )
Cool
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footslogger
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 12 Jan 2015
Messages: 166
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 04, 2017 3:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
the base value of schyted chariot is to lowering ennemies bases figthting factor( execpt lights, LMI, WWG and elephants ) to zero and no support.
Chariots are impetuous without impact but with furious charge. AND THAT'S ALL
This is means:
The lowering factor and cancelling support is only valuable in first melee round.
All terrains effects applies even tophill.
Armor effect applies if mounted opponent. The furious charge cancells foot armour in first round.
Disorder applies, so a disordered apponent has -1 factor, if not light, lmi and so on.
Javelin, 2HW, and all capacities not cancelled by furious charge aplies.
Don't forget the die of expendable cause 1 disorder to all friends units in one UD rear.


Hmmm. I think this is going to need something in the FAQ as now that I look at the text and see your response, I'm less clear about it than I was before. Of course, I may have been mistaken.

In the text (p15) it says that the combat factor of opponents is set to 0, but that LI, LH, LMI, WWg, and elephant retain their basic factor and abilities.

In the combat table (p20) it says that scythed chariots set the enemy factor to 0, except for (same list of troop types).

It doesn't say anything about cancelling abilities. So I would think that scythed chariots against legionaries would be a 0 (for the chariots) vs a 1 for the legionaries (their impact ability is not cancelled), likewise against pike and anything with a spear.

Swordsmen with bows would get their missile support ability still.

And as you've mentioned heavy armour applies for mounted and two-handed weapon applies for foot.

I guess when I've read combat factor in the past, I've taken that to mean the final factor after the basic factor and abilities have been applied, but I see that combat factor is not used anywhere else in the text (always otherwise referred to as basic factor and modifiers).
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daveallen
Signifer


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 348
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 04, 2017 4:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree, the more I look at it the messier it gets.

When I've used Scythed Chariots in competition in the UK and Spain (against very experienced opponents) they have gone in at 0:0. No Impact, Armour or Missile Support, but with minuses for disorder, panic and terrain. I'm confident that's the way it should be, but I'd rather it was based on a ruling in black and white than just experience.

So FAQ please.
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Hazelbark
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 840
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 04, 2017 4:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
We will get El Kreator in here to add clarity.
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PHGamer
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 16 Juin 2016
Messages: 139
Localisation: Pennsylvannia
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 04, 2017 5:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In situations like this, I rely on legalese, and very precise wording. So, the wording for Scythed Chariots is ..."has a combat factor of zero"... (lets ignore the exceptions for LI, LMI etc for now)
I do not see a definition for Combat Factor. We have Basic Factor, Abilities, and Modifiers.
It seems obvious that Combat Factor includes Basic Factor, otherwise there is no point here. But does it include Abilities? With no definition this is not clear. It can be inferred that it does because in combat resolution, pages 55-57, it discusses Basic factor, and includes abilities in the third paragraph like Impact, Javelin, or Missile Support as an example. Then moves onto Modifiers. Including Support, Disorder and Uphill.

Based on that, I would have to judge that when facing Scythed Chariots on the turn of contact that Armor, 2HW, Javelins, Missile Support etc would all count as zero. But Terrain, Disorder and Commanders would count.

Of course in some cases this does defy common sense. Missile Support and Javelins should count, as they hit the Scythed Chariots first. And I do not know of a case of Scythed Chariots against elephants, but I suspect a 5 ton animal is not going to care much about the 1 ton horse coming his way.

But, this all is irreverent and conjecture as these rules are translated from French, and the precise definitions will be lost in translation. We will have to go with the original intent. I eagerly await a native French speaker to weigh in on this discussion about Fauché carts.

Not to eagerly, really, those chariots have been painted for 30 years, I still need to paint an army to wrap around them.
[/i]
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hcaille
Administrateur


Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2008
Messages: 2321
Localisation: Lyon
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 06, 2017 8:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hello

Here is a summary of combat factors for a unit attacked by a Scythed chariot in the 1st round:
· Basic factor is set to zero except for LI (+1 if javelin), LH (+1 if javelin), LMI with bow/crossbow (+1 against mounted), LMI with Javelin (+2), WWg (+1) and El (+3 including Impact)
· Impact ability of foot and mounted do not count (except for Elephant)
· Armor applies if mounted (armor of foot troops is cancelled by the furious charge)
· Panic for Elephant and Camels do not apply as Scythed chariots represent suicide troops or already panicked herd
· 2HW ability is not relevant as Scythed chariot have only one cohesion point
· Stakes gives -2 to the Scythed chariot
· Missile support count against Scythed chariot
· If a Scythed chariot do an uncontrolled charge it has -1 in melee
· Disorder and terrain modifiers (including uphill) always applies

I hope it's clear now Wink

Regards
Hervé


Dernière édition par hcaille le Sam Jan 07, 2017 8:41 am; édité 1 fois
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daveallen
Signifer


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 348
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 06, 2017 9:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
hcaille a écrit:
Hello

Here is a summary of combat factors for a unit attacked by a Scythed chariot in the 1st round:
· Basic factor is set to zero except for LI (+1 if javelin), LH (+1 if javelin), LMI with bow/crossbow (+1 against mounted), LMI with Javelin (+2), WWg (+1) and El (+3 including Impact)
· Impact ability of foot and mounted do not count (except for Elephant)
· Armor applies if mounted (armor of foot troops is cancelled by the furious charge)
· Panic for Elephant and Camels do not apply
· 2HW ability is not relevant as Scythed chariot have only one cohesion point
· Stakes gives -2 to the Scythed chariot
· Missile support count against Scythed chariot
· Disorder and terrain modifiers (including uphill) always applies

I hope it's clear now Wink

Regards
Hervé


Thanks Hervé

Just one point and three questions:

    The opponents of scythed chariots do not get support in the first round (but do get missile support).

    Does the -1 for Uncontrolled Charge apply?

    Does Panic apply to the opponents of Scythed Chariots also in contact with Camels/Elephants? [just checking]

    Any chance of a slot in the FAQs?

Regards

Dave
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daveallen
Signifer


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 348
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 06, 2017 9:48 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Also, I'm assuming the same factors apply in the first round to units that frontally attack the Scythed Chariots.

So maybe:

Citation:
Here is a summary of combat factors for a unit fighting a Scythed chariot frontally in the 1st round.


Regards,

Dave
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