Art De La Guerre

[Snowcat]

Feedback on this combination would be appreciated. It's my first attempt at putting together a force for AdG:

154. Avar 553-822AD
Initiative 4

Cmd1
Brilliant C-in-C 6
3 Elite heavy cavalry bow 13 39
2 Heavy cavalry bow 11 22
2 Avar Light cavalry bow 6 12
1 Bulgar Light cavalry bow 6 6

Cmd2
Competent Sub-Gen 3
1 Elite Heavy cavalry bow 13 13
3 Heavy cavalry bow 11 33
3 Bulgar Light cavalry bow 6 18

Cmd3
Competent Sub-Gen 3
4 Slav warriors - medium swordsmen 7 28
1 Slav warriors (mediocre) 5 5
3 Slav Light infantry bow 4 12

23 units: 200pts


The army should dance around a bit, with its good initiative, mobility and excellent commanders. Advantageous deployment would be a priority.

Cmd 1 is meant to do the damage.
Cmd 2 is meant to support Cmd 1.
Cmd 3 is a rough terrain force that could also be used as bait.

Cheers

[thierry]

[Snowcat]

Interesting variation Thierry.

I like what you've done. You've better matched the commands to their intended purpose. Cmd 3 is neater and simple enough not to need a better general. Cmd 2 can afford to have its general included. And Cmd 1 - the killer - is strengthened as a result.

Is the drop from 4 to 3 Initiative an issue? Negligible? Not an issue?

You've given me something to think about.

Thanks again.

[AntiokosIII]

I think the drop in initiative could bite you. You need open terrain to fight with horse archers.
_________________
Tabletop miniatures are the only completely honorable form of warfare ever invented.

[Ramses II]

The maths on initiative is interesting. First and foremost you have to decide whether you intend / prefer to attack or defend, which in turn influences the quality of generals and number of LC to use.
If one assumes the 'average' army initiative is "3", having an initiative of "4" gives you odds of 2:1 that you will win the choice, while having an army initiative of "5" increases your chances to 4:1.

On first inspection gaining this choice can seem quite crucial, until you realise that both sides can use a number of tactics in the first turn to even up the apparent loss of initiative.

Much also depends on the terrain choices available and how they are used. Giving up the initiative may not be such a problem if your list only has Plains or Desert as the terrain choices for your 'mounted' army, as you obviously choose only 2x pieces (coast and road) allowing you very good possibilities of amending any terrain positioned by you opponent.

[Snowcat]

The terrain for Avars is steppe and plain, so that should be good news for the battlefield set-up.

The plan for this army would be to wrong-foot the opponent and gang up on his flank - or (with more skill required) lure part of his army into an exposed position where my best troops can hopefully fairly swiftly* punish him.

* I suspect killing the enemy swiftly with Avars will require more skill in maneuver/flanking attacks than relying on heavily armoured bow cavalry to do the job with brute force.

So primarily the plan would be to attack; however, a more experienced general might achieve similar outcomes via 'defence'.

Which is more important? Gaining that extra unit of heavy cavalry bow, or keeping the Initiative 4 via both sub-generals being competent with the brilliant c-in-c and 6 light cavalry?

Cheers

[Hazelbark]

I don't think your medium swordsmen can hold terrain versus any enemy terrain force and therefore are bait or a waste.

I would drop to 3 mediocre and only 1 LI Bow and attach to a different command. That saves 21 points

I would move an elite HC bow from Corps 1 and make it an included ordinary general into Corps 3. You saved 24 points.
Now shift 1 LC Bow into the 3rd Corps.
Buy a MC Bow and LC and put into 3rd Corps.
Buy a MC Bow and put it in either Corps 1 or 2.

So 3rd Corps is a small little command that can zip off to a flank or flank march or do all sorts of things.

The way you win in approach from all directions and shoot. Then evade and return to shoot until you see flanks you can charge.

[Snowcat]

That's an interesting development, Hazelbark!

I can actually get it slightly better (assuming I've followed your thoughts correctly):

154. Avar 553-822AD
Initiative 4

Cmd1
Brilliant C-in-C 6
3 Avar Elite heavy cavalry bow 13 39
2 Avar Heavy cavalry bow 11 22
1 Avar Medium cavalry bow 9 9
2 Avar Light cavalry bow 6 12

Cmd2
Competent Sub-Gen 3
3 Avar Heavy cavalry bow 11 33
1 Avar Medium cavalry bow 9 9
2 Bulgar Light cavalry bow 6 12
1 Slav Ordinary medium swordsmen 7 7
2 Slav Mediocre medium swordsmen 5 10
1 Slav Light infantry bow 4 4

Cmd3
Competent Sub-Gen (included) 0
1 Avar Elite heavy cavalry bow 13 13
1 Avar Medium cavalry bow 9 9
2 Bulgar Light cavalry bow 6 12

22 units: 200pts

Result: There's one less unit. The Slavs are reduced in number and are now basically filler/bait. And the 3rd command's general can be competent, not just ordinary - so the Initiative is back to 4 again.
I really like that 3rd mosquito command.
Overall: more dancing, less liability perhaps.

Thanks.

[Hazelbark]

yep

although included competent are risky and command doesn't need +1. ordinary will do.

[Snowcat]

I thought for 3pts, the jump to Initiative 4 overall was worth it, and the mosquito command will now only benefit from the better general. Plus, I couldn't think of anything else to do with 3pts other than upgrading one of the medium cavalry units to heavy.

Cheers

[Snowcat]

Here's an update:

154. Avar 553-822AD
Initiative 4

Cmd1
Brilliant C-in-C 6
3 Avar Elite heavy cavalry bow 13 39
2 Avar Heavy cavalry bow 11 22
2 Avar Light cavalry bow 6 12
2 Bulgar Light cavalry bow 6 12

Cmd2
Competent Sub-Gen 3
3 Avar Heavy cavalry bow 11 33
2 Slav Ordinary medium swordsmen 7 14
4 Slav Mediocre medium swordsmen 5 20
1 Slav Light infantry bow 4 4

Cmd3
Competent Sub-Gen (included) 0
2 Avar Heavy cavalry bow 11 22
2 Bulgar Light cavalry bow 6 12

23 units: 199pts

As long as I can do something useful with the Slavs, I'm liking the look of this. An alternative option would be for 1-2 of the light cav from Cmd1 to be added to Cmd2.

Cheers
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[daveallen]

About that third command.

I'm not sure a competent general is good value with such a small command.

If a general's included in a unit there's a greater chance he will be killed and you'll lose an extra VP if he's competent.

You can use the points saved downgrading him to upgrade his unit to Elite, thereby making him safer and more effective. The remaining 2 pts could upgrade a MSwd to Average.

Or upgrade Corps II commander to Brilliant, drop a MSwd mediocre, buy an extra LF and you still have the two points to upgrade the Cav to Elite.

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence

[Snowcat]

All good food for thought Dave, thanks. I'm pretty keen on preserving my Initiative of 4, which will drop to 3 if I downgrade the 3rd general.

?

Cheers
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."

[Hazelbark]

Have two brilliants and one ordinary. Same initiative and points.

[Snowcat]

And voila!

Thanks.
_________________
"When one goes, one must go with style."