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Attempt to conform as a group
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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plefebvre
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 30 Déc 2009
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 04, 2017 5:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Bottom of page 52 and Head of page 53 :

"The bonus of 1 UD is only for conforming and is not added to the movement distance . If a unit or a group does not have sufficient distance to make the initial contact, it cannot charge the ennemy."

As a consequence , if some units of a group are out of charge distance at the the begining of the move phase, these units cannot join the charge. So you have to split the group at the begining of the charge.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 04, 2017 6:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
But p36 Charge Definition para 2 says a group can charge if at least one of its units is able to cntact an enemy. I take this to mean that not all have to contact enemy.

This question is not about using the extra 1UD to try to contact enemy. Its about whether a player can choose to conform by group in the full knowledge that it would mean no units will end up in a conformed position.

I'm coming to the conclusion its not an issue addressed in the rules. However I think the majority view is that such a 'conform' should not be allowed.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 04, 2017 6:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think Patrick is quite clear .

If all you can get is a point contact and no face contact there is no charge.

If you cannot find the answer you seem to want, perhaps you might consider it's not there, and move on to what is there.
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plefebvre
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 04, 2017 6:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
But p36 Charge Definition para 2 says a group can charge if at least one of its units is able to cntact an enemy. I take this to mean that not all have to contact enemy.

This question is not about using the extra 1UD to try to contact enemy. Its about whether a player can choose to conform by group in the full knowledge that it would mean no units will end up in a conformed position.

I'm coming to the conclusion its not an issue addressed in the rules. However I think the majority view is that such a 'conform' should not be allowed.


OK i understand.
It's a more complex question that what i red at a first sight.

We think about that problem and answer as soon as possible
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 04, 2017 9:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I repeat.

If a unit in the group can charge the front of the enemy unit, but the group has not the move to enable that unit to complete conforming to the enemy. Is this not an "unable to conform" situation, and the enemy will conform on its move?

If this is so I do not see that we have a problem!
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 05, 2017 1:10 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As I understand this, the following is occurring
  • A group of units is moving obliquely towards an enemy line, and the end unit makes contact, with the ‘intention’ of conforming the chargers by wheeling
  • One other unit can use the extra 1UD to wheel into contact.

    What happens to the remainder of the group?


There are several points here
  1. Unless the units are Impetuous (or the player pays extra CP to control them), the player may choose which units / groups are to move into contact with the enemy.
  2. If one unit of a group contacts the enemy (as in this case) the other units may choose to stay in a group and stop at that point, or they may continue to advance forward up to the limit of their movement allowance (or they in turn make contact, and noting the difference between ‘charge’ and ‘support’)
  3. Conformation (1UD) occurs after the formal movement ceases - basically a game mechanic to line stuff up. it is at this point that those units that can conform must do so. If the player kept the units in a group and some units are outside 1UD of the enemy, this breaks up the group since those units may not move.
  4. On the other hand, the player may choose to advance each unit in the group it’s maximum distance so that more enemy will be contacted and a completely different tactical situation will develop. In this case each unit will conform separately.

Basically the rules are written to try to give the players simple choices when moving the units into contact with the enemy in order to keep the game as clear as possible.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 05, 2017 9:48 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks
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brothercrow
Barbare


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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 05, 2017 10:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes, i agree with Ramses' analysis here - I've been using careful light horse positioning to break up impetuous units in exactly the way described!

Graeme,
Durham Wargames.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 05, 2017 3:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Couple of other thoughts for completeness
  1. The 2nd, 3rd etc units in the group that have not yet made contact may not use conformation to extend their maximum movement distance. Here the HI don’t get to move 3UD forwards, though they may end up shuffling sideways after their formal movement ceases.
  2. This needs conformation from the tech board
    The Conformation “shuffling†is purely intended to align the units. So, after conformation movement, the units should be completely aligned. Put another way, the units must start their conformation movement with both front corners within 1UD of the intended points of alignment.
    Where the charging group was reasonably well aligned to start with, most / all of the units in the group will end up in combat. However, simple geometry suggests that groups that start more than 30-45 degrees out of line with their intended targets may not be able to conform as a group at all as the 2nd unit will end up with its furthest corner more than 1UD from its intended point of alignment.
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Luddite
Archer


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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 05, 2017 6:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
"The 2nd, 3rd etc units in the group that have not yet made contact may not use conformation to extend their maximum movement distance."

But presumably they may continue their charge up to their maximum move even if they don't make contact?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 05, 2017 7:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yup, as the group moves into contact, the player effectively has two choices.
- Either the group stops when the first contact is made, in which case there is a "group conformation" by those units that are within 1UD of the enemy - and these may be a subset of the original group; others outside 1UD stay put.

- Or the group splits up as other units continue to advance forwards up to the limit of their movement allowance / into further contact etc. in which case there may ultimately be several unit (or group) conformations.

This choice is made during the formal movement of the initial group, and ideally should be declared / explained by the player so that his opponent understands the intention and can agree the actions being taken. Once the formal movement is over, the various conformations are performed to tidy up / align stuff so that melee can be clearly understood.

Does that help?
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 05, 2017 10:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I interpret all this as

1. A groupcan charge if at least one unit contacts the enemy.
2. Upon initial contact all other units in the group can continue moving upto their full move.
3. Units in contact can slide/pivot upto 1UD to conform with enemy.
4. This one I'm not sure about. Other units in the group can slide/pivot/move upto 1UD to maintain group integrity with those units that have successfully conformed with enemy.
5. Remaining units, ie those that cannot conform with enemy or maintain group integrity, cannot move. This could split the group.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 06, 2017 12:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yup, that’s about how I read it too, except I combine 3) and 4) to read;
Citation:
The unit in contact and those in the group within 1UD of the enemy conform on the enemy (possibly as a sub-group).
Basically the group conforms as a single entity. (This has the same effect as the two statements you made, since the ‘charger’ will slide/pivot, while the others will slide/pivot/move.)

By staying in a group the units will attempt to conform as a group, aligning together with the unit that made initial contact. This will be true where the attacking group ends up almost parallel with the target, but may otherwise result in the attacking group being split up.

As before, the real ‘gotcha’ here is assuming that a group Conformation allows the 2nd and other units to pivot forwards beyond their maximum movement allowance - NO, it does not.

Also note that this is a generalisation which may be overridden by circumstances.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 06, 2017 8:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Guys, I have been advised that the technical board are looking into the ponts raised in this thread.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 12, 2017 9:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Any idea when we'll hear back on this?
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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