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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Tournaments and Events
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madaxeman
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Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 935
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 11:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ricard Aynsley and Paul Frith- 193. Ghaznavid. Break point 34
Jason Scott and Steve Royle. 128. Nikephorian Byzantine. BP 30
Richard Walker and Mark Clarke. 128 Nike Byz. BP 29
Phil Mackie and Ralph Ashdown 216 Jurchen Chin (Jin). BP 29
Richard Young and Charles Masefield 129 Armenian Principality BP32
Steve Hacker and Kevin Johnson 251. Ottoman Turks BP 29
Andrew Whitby and Steve Taylor 128 Nike Byzantine BP 28
Dave Allen and Gordon Jaimieson 193. Ghaznavid BP 28
Mark Fry and That Man Baldwin 😊 - 165 Sui and Tang BP 32
Colin Cavanagh and Mark Mainwaring- 128 Nikephorian Byzantine BP 27
Edward Glew and Ashley Bye- 258 Timurid BP 29
Dave Handley and Nik Sharp- 127 Thematic Byzantine😱 BP35
Darrell and Harrison Pearce- 128 Nikephorian Byz BP31
Adrian Clarke and C Cunningham- 193 Ghaznavid BP193
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kevinj
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Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017
Messages: 158
Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 12:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
The general way that the initial rounds of 'UK AdlG West' competitions have been drawn of late is based on the UK rankings


Whilst I can see how this works for Singles tournaments I'm not sure it's so useful for doubles as a significant factor is the experience of the two players working together.

Citation:
Army date wont really work here as the Ottomans will mostly end up fighting each other


Since there's only one Ottoman army this shouldn't be a problem. If I end up playing against Steve something's gone horribly wrong... Twisted Evil
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 370
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 1:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I get your point on use of the ranking in not discouraging lower ranked players.
But as this was not a selling point in entry details it's ineffective in encouraging entries but more on retention.
Running after a runaway non ranked is discouraging too . especially if they avoid ranked players all weekend.
Wimbledon doesn't put first and second ranked together first round. Wander why?
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 61
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 5:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As there are so many Nikephorians & a high number of Ghaznavids the other alternative is that you just go for a purely random draw or play each Ghaznavid against a Nikephorian (until you run out of Ghaznavids) - it's equally arbitrary. But I'd not rule out civil wars in any round.
A 'By date' approach doesn't work either, as many of the lists are of a comparable time-line.

The system of running the 1st round draw based on ranking has been used (successfully) in a number of events over the last 18 months.
In doubles - it's easy - you just add the ranking scores of the 2 players and divide by 2 to create a ranking number. If you can score a pair and give each player a win value, you can certainly rank a pair.

No AdlG competitions that I am aware of specify the method of the 1st round draw in their promotional material?

Looking at the list of entrants/armies all the lists look strong - so there are no big advantages of avoiding one or another - the top players and top armies will play each other eventually.

"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much" Crying or Very sad
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 61
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 5:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
I get your point on use of the ranking in not discouraging lower ranked players.
But as this was not a selling point in entry details it's ineffective in encouraging entries but more on retention


As Colin has stated with 28 players and another 2 on standby - we are not short of attendees.
Retention is actually an issue. We have seen new AdlG players attend single competitions - face a string of top players - get mangled and never come back.
It has happened in events using other rules as well.
Now you can argue that it is the way to learn - playing the top players - but they will usually only do that in their initial game.

Seeding by ranking allows a much more measured approach - I'd also argue that it stops the 'lucky' top ranking players who get a real rooky 1st round from having a benefit over another top player who draws (at random) a peer in the rankings or an inspired contenter from the middle ranks.

Wimbledon is Wimbledon - we could always go for a Formula 1 approach - with ranking on the grid determined by practice laps .... just a thought Twisted Evil
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 6:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mark G Fry a écrit:

Retention is actually an issue. We have seen new AdlG players attend single competitions - face a string of top players - get mangled and never come back.


Currently ADLG's retention rate is better than is the case for several other comparable rulesets.

Here is the actual attrition rate among prior competition attendees in 2018 (numbers & %ages of players from 2017 who did not reappear in 2018)

1. FoGAM (39 / -44%)
2. DBA (16 / -31%)
3. MeG (15 / -29%)
4. ADLG (30 / -18%)
5. DBMM (14 / -13%)
6. DBM (4 / -10%)

If you take DBM's 10% as a 'minimum possible' baseline rate of churn, 18% is pretty low indeed, especially for a growing ruleset. The attrition rate would be 25% if overseas players were included - which wouldn't make much sense really.

Overall there was a net increase of +19 players playing in UK ADLG events in 2017, with a total of 53 new faces appearing in UK ADLG events for the first time in 2018. 7 of these came from overseas, the other 46 being new UK-based players.
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 6:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Okay Wimbledon is a knockout competition so not a good anology except for 1 never plays 2 until the last game.
Formula one is worse as it's a snake race . Having number 12 overtaking number 11 doesn't make him first.

You say "seeding by ranking" as if it has a particular meaning. It does not. We need a method of using ranking to make it meaningful.

Any further debate is best left to the weekend face to face.
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 7:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:

Currently ADLG's retention rate is better than is the case for several other comparable rulesets.


I'm making a general point Tim Very Happy
ADLG has a great record - so we should strive to keep it that way.

Cheers
Mark
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daveallen
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Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 10:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't mind how the draw's done as long as we don't have to face AC/CC 's 193 unit Ghaznavid in the first round. Twisted Evil
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 11:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
By Colins method I can see the pattern.

Steve Hacker
Steve Hacker
Thee Don.

..... as thee Don is doing fog-r.
Must be back to ..... (drum roll)

Steve?
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 13, 2019 11:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Over the last year I've been in charge of the draw for several tournaments. The pretty standard rules are

1. If there are foreign players (and in Scotland the English count as foreigners!) they don't play each other in the first two rounds

2. No club match-ups first round

3. Club and nationality match-ups are avoided if possible in the last round where players concerned cannot affect the top three places.

Otherwise random draw first round, followed by swiss chess.
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Colin_Cavanagh
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 07 Déc 2015
Messages: 97
Localisation: United Kingdom
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 14, 2019 5:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
I get your point on use of the ranking in not discouraging lower ranked players.
But as this was not a selling point in entry details it's ineffective in encouraging entries but more on retention.
Running after a runaway non ranked is discouraging too . especially if they avoid ranked players all weekend.
Wimbledon doesn't put first and second ranked together first round. Wander why?


Wimbledon is a spectator sport Wargaming isn't!!!
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Colin_Cavanagh
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Inscrit le: 07 Déc 2015
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MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 14, 2019 6:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
By Colins method I can see the pattern.

Steve Hacker
Steve Hacker
Thee Don.

..... as thee Don is doing fog-r.
Must be back to ..... (drum roll)

Steve?


As you are well aware this could never happen!
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Mark G Fry
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Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2017
Messages: 61
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 15, 2019 10:12 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Over the last year I've been in charge of the draw for several tournaments. The pretty standard rules are

1. If there are foreign players (and in Scotland the English count as foreigners!) they don't play each other in the first two rounds

2. No club match-ups first round

3. Club and nationality match-ups are avoided if possible in the last round where players concerned cannot affect the top three places.

Otherwise random draw first round, followed by swiss chess.


I totally agree with points 1-3 Alan - that applies even in a Seeding by Ranking approach.
Where we differ is the random draw bit thereafter.
Rounds 2 onwards are always Swiss chess.

I note your point about "in Scotland the English count as foreigners" but what about the Welsh? Not that you'd want to encourage Baldwin and Jackson to cross the Severn and head north!!! Laughing
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Dickstick
Signifer


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 370
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 15, 2019 12:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You can only hope no one has told them it's free to return home?
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