Art De La Guerre

[SteveR]

A unit with an included general is displaced by a friendly unit which is conforming into melee.

Page 53 specifies that a unit displaced in this way "may not move during the movement phase"

May it still rally?

Page 45 specifies that units which rally do so "instead of moving"

[Ramses II]

This depends on how the unit was displaced. 

• If the displacement was caused by a unit conforming, the unit loses its movement, so may not rally. This is because conformation takes place after all movement has ended.  
• If the unit was displaced by another unit interpenetrating but being unable to pass entirely through it, the unit may subsequently move, hence it may rally instead of moving.  

See the FAQ p10/11 regarding interpretation and the effect on movement, and the official amendment to p53. 

[SteveR]

Thank you - the case I experienced was the first case - displacement caused by a unit conforming following a charge.

What is the source for conformations taking place after all movement has ended?

Page 18 of the FAQ, the first clause, specifies that conformation in the case I detailed happens "just after a charge, to align with the enemy" so the displacement happens "just following" the charge, which seems to me to be before other moves in that command which have yet to take place.

[Ramses II]

Most / all people tend to make conformation moves immediately displacing units as this happens, which is why the amendment to p53 was made, and why it is important to make the distinction between the two. 

Conformation after movement*** actually takes place in the melee phase, which “occurs after all movement and shooting has been made”.
See general principles P50

***Note, conformation can occur at several points, but this particular situation applies to conforming after normal movement. 

[Mike Bennett]

Hi

Where does the concept that conforming does not happen in the movement phase come from please? “After initial contact is made, the player continues the movement”. I understood that charge and subsequent initial contact happens in the movement phase, and that it continues the movement until lined up, all in the movement phase.

[SteveR]

Hi Ramses,

Sorry, I am still not following you.

I am familiar with the official amendment on page 53, after all I quoted it in my original question

Page 50 does not seem to me to be pertinent. The question is not when the melee phase happens, but rather when conformation happens. Page 50 does not have anything that I can see supporting your position but I am willing to be enlightened. How does it indicate that conformation after movement takes place in the melee phase?

The FAQ page 18 appears definitive to me that charge conformations, and displacement of friends, happens during the movement phase.

(Indeed, if displacement by friends conforming to an enemy did not happen during the movement phase then the last sentence on page 53 would not be necessary - either the original version or the amendment. However I have learned to never use reasoning like this to understand ADLG)

The original question was a minor point which seems to me to be able to be argued either way - the displaced unit is only rallying and not moving so can do it, or use of the term "move" is to be taken as shorthand for receiving orders and since it was displaced it may not use any CPs. I was just asking in case it had been already decided. After all if the rules can contain a "free" rally for a single unit in a group of impetuous elements held for 3 CP maybe this issue is not too small to be worthy of being addressed.

Steve

[Ramses II]

Hi both

The AdlG rules are presented in the sequence used in the game; Movement phase, Shooting phase, Melee phase, Rout and Pursuit phase and players go through these phases consecutively. The Conformation rules are a sub-section of the Melee phase, so technically conformation occurs after movement has ended and is merely a rules mechanism to adjust the position of unit(s) for the purposes of melee.

Players find it much easier to carry out conformation adjustments as the units move into contact, not least because they may choose the order that units are moved. And as you say, the FAQ presents the timing when Conformation takes place 'during movement'.

However, the point is that once units conform, they and the affected units are deemed to have completed their movement and have passed into the next, Melee, phase. As such, units displaced in this fashion may not subsequently move (or rally).

Does that make better sense?

[kevinj]

So, in this case, if conformation does not happen until after movement, why can't a unit which will be displaced, but has not yet, rally or move?

[Ramses II]

The amendment to p53 says

[SteveR]

"The Conformation rules are a sub-section of the Melee phase,"

Ah, now I understand where you are coming from. Your position is reasonable and consistent. Conformation and displacement is addressed in the Melee section so happen after the movement phase.

My only issue with this understanding is that using a sophisticated rationale like this to overcome the direct statement in the FAQ is as fraught with peril. (like my earlier reasoning regarding the changed sentence on page 53)

We'll see what the TB says as to the answer, but the bigger issue to my mind is the general principle regarding timing of conformation. Restricting it to the melee phase might have unintended consequences or implications to other situations. Writing rules is hard.

[Ramses II]

Totally agree here. I am only presenting my understanding based on the official amendment to p53, the way the rules are written and past answers in the forum.

[Hazelbark]

[SteveR]

Hi Dan,

" Rally requirements movement option. "

Actually, to Rally requires a lack of movement. One must remain stationary.

And when one is displaced it also requires one to not move. To remain stationary.

But this is one of those issues where an arbitrary answer is fine. Thanks

Steve

[Ramses II]

[Hazelbark]

I disagree and I think you have a mistaken focus on certain timing issues. However timing does matter.

Yes a unit may rally then be displaced. Both occur in the movement phase.

If you have moved, then you may not rally.
Some rally attempts require CP, these can only be expended in the movement phase.
Some rally does not cost CP and can only occur without movement.

Conformation is indeed a game mechanism, but there is no doubt it often occurs in the movement phase. I think you are wrong that conformation is not part of the official movements available to units. For instance conforming after melee. These can specifically be executed in the movement phase. Another would be conforming as in the diagram on page 53 left side. If that did not occur in the movement phase another unit could not then come up to provide support. Those are two easy that spring to mind. My point is conforming is clearly occurring in the movement phase.

So however it works, the DT and El Kreator have to date ruled as we discussed.