Art De La Guerre

[Hazelbark]

[Hazelbark]

[Ramses II]

[harryKonst]

RamsesII, you have to be convinced about the width of the ZoC, to understand the system better. The side edges of the square that represents the ZoC are the same as the front edge of the square. Any unit touching them is considered to be outside of the ZoC. Go to the FAQ my friend, that has the title ''Conformation after contact with units that are at right angles'' and read example 1 and 2. On example 1, B1 contacts the right corner of unit A2 and conforms (because of the definition of charge, and although being in contact with the front edge of the Zoc's square of A1 unit, it is still considers to be outside its ZoC) BUT on example 2 the B1 enters (as the clarification tell us) the Zocs af A1 and A2 AT THE SAME TIME and so it conforms to the most threatening enemy which is A1. You realize of course that the only way to enter simultaneously the Zocs of A1 and A2 is if the side edge of the Zoc's square of A2 is also consider to be outside A2's ZoC.

[AlanCutner]

Since my first post I've been persuaded by this thread that group 123 charge group 456, and the corner contact on 7 is ignored.

I don't agree with Ramses' argument that contact with the edge of a ZOC is the same as being ZOC'd. If that were so (in the diagram below) unit A would suffer movement restrictions for being ZOC'd by unit Z, even though neither are in front of the other. That would be a major change to how we play.

XXYYZZ
...........AABBCC

[Rafa Tortosa]

Please,
Next week a lot of impetuous troops will charge in Alicante's tournament, please, is possible confirm this rule?
Thanks!

[Ramses II]

When in doubt, I recommend checking with the tournament referee beforehand, or at least agreeing with each opponent before the game, just how any potentially contentious areas like this will be played. 

[Ramses II]

[AlanCutner]

[Hazelbark]

[Zoltan]

Unit 3 is NOT within unit 7's ZoC at the start of the move. If unit 6 was not present, 3 would be able to make an ordinary move along the side of 7 ending with a quarter turn to face 7's flank. I doubt anyone would argue that 3's movement had to stop just because it's front corner "brushed" the front corner of 7. Perhaps they'd say unit 6 had to slide a gnat's todger away from 7 before making an ordinary move to avoid front corner to corner contact?

RAW page 51 Types of Contact - Front contact. "An attacking unit can contact the front edge of an enemy if it begins its movement with its front edge either entirely or partially in front of the straight line extending the enemy's front edge." The FAQ page 9 example 1 appears to modify this to say that contact on a front corner is also a permissible charge, albeit in a situation where the charger is trying to pass through a 1 UD wide gap. The FAQ examples do not illustrate a situation where the charger is already within an enemy ZoC (which is a key point of this discussion).

Unit 3 can't slide because it is within unit 6's ZoC. Unit 6 is the most threatening enemy to unit 3; unit 7 doesn't meet the "most threatening" definition n FAQ page 5, so there is no need to try and break the ZoC tie between units 6 & 7.

If unit 3 is impetuous it MUST charge unit 6 (ignoring passing "contact" with unit 7's front corner). This leaves unit 7 able to charge unit 3's flank in its turn. This is the wheeze that SteveR was questioning in his OP.

So the question remains: where a charger is ZoC'd by enemy A, and during its charge it touches the corner of enemy B, does it conform with B or carry on into A?

[Ramses II]

Ok guys, lets ignore my "red herring" on ZoC and return to the initial question. To recap;
We have two 'perfectly aligned' lines where there is an advanced unit on one side. What happens when group 1-3 charges A-C?

112233

. . . . . .DD
AABBCC


The process in the rules is:-

1. Group 1-3 advances into corner contact with D and stops.
   (P36 charge definition 1st para and note (a) below.)
   
   
2. Unit 3 conforms on D.
   
   • This is defined as a 'front contact' (p51) causing it to slide right.
     
   • The player may choose to slide the entire group putting both 2 & 3 into contact with D.
     (see p53 2nd para, the discussion in Continuing a charge and note (b) below)
   
   
3. Unit 1 may (must if it is Impetuous) continue to charge into B.
   (p36 continuing a charge)

NOTES

1. Irrespective of the fact that A-C are defined as 'the most threatening unit' to 1-3, The charging unit MUST conform on the first unit it contacts. The FAQ also illustrates this situation while raising another variation (p19 example 1, conforming after contact with units at right angles) . In this example, B1 must conform on A2 even though 'the most threatening unit' A1 is the initial target of the charge.
   
2. I am advised that conformation occurs before continuing a charge, which was the implied question of this thread. So NO, group 1-3 does NOT ignore D while charging and conforming.
   
3. ZoCs may inhibit conformation in some instances (eg. flank contact), but not in this case. Indeed the rules show that conformation may cause a unit to leave an enemy ZoC involuntarily (p54 1st diag), and green note at bottom of exiting a ZoC, p34.
   
4. Where the two lines are more than 1UD apart, group 1-3 could slide slightly left to avoid the contact with D, but if they are within 1UD of each other, units 1-3 and A-C are mutually ZoCed so may not slide.
   
5. As an alternative,
   • The player may choose to conform only unit 3 on D (p53 2nd para) allowing 1 & 2 to continue into A & B
     
   • Unit 3 could charge in isolation, conforming on D as before, allowing units 1 & 2 to charge separately.
     
6. Given the intention behind this tactic to dilute an attack together with the potential for disagreements, I would recommend that when D is moved forwards, this intention is declared and discussed.

[madaxeman]

That makes sense.

I wuld add that if this was ever used "against" me in a game "as a tactic" to "dilute" an attack (rather than occurring by accident/chance and then leaving both players puzzled as to what to do) I would probably take rather a dim view of my opponent.
_________________
www.madaxeman.com

[AlanCutner]

I can't help but feel this is a tactic with the same 'likeability' of the DBM 'kinked lines' tactic. If allowed it will be done.

However there is a flaw in the argument put forward by Ramses. FAQ p19 example 1 does indeed show the charger conforming to the first enemy contacted. But at that point it has not entered the ZOC of the enemy to its front, therefore restrictions from 'most threatening enemy' do not apply.

I still think units 1-3 contact units A-C if they are within their ZOC at point of contact with unit D. And even if there is any rules uncertainty over this it should still be the case to prevent a nasty rules loophole being used to inhibit contact. It was things like this that helped kill DBM.

[Ramses II]