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Artillery turning to fight
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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SteveR
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Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Lun Sep 28, 2020 10:11 pm    Sujet du message: Artillery turning to fight Répondre en citant
I was playing a Ming vs Korean game with lots of light artillery and had an interesting thing come up.

A unit of impetuous Medium swordsmen was fighting two Light Artillery frontally. The artillery were side by side. Not unexpectedly it won, destroyed the Artillery to its front and pursued the mandatory 1 UD

So at this point the enemy artillery and the sword are side by side.

So what can the Artillery do?

It could just stand there and probably be hit in the flank next turn. It can advance. It could turn around but of course that would leave it in the same position, just facing the same way as the sword.

Can it conform for free and fight the flank of the Medium Sword?

Per page 52 Artillery is prevented from ever charging an enemy or moving into contact to provide support.

But this is not a charge - the units are already in contact. The FAQ page 18 says this conformation "replaces the charge which cannot take place since the units are already in contact."

However page 55 says "The rules for contacting the side or rear of the enemy and the restrictions on contact remain valid for this particular type of conformation"

So we figured the Artillery could not fight the sword voluntarily. Any disagreement with that interpretation?
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Lun Sep 28, 2020 11:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Assuming the front edges of the artillery bases were in front corner to corner contact the when the med foot pursued it should have conformed to the front edge of the other artillery base. It is my understanding that impetuous troops conform to an unengaged enemy base they are in corner to corner contact with instead of pursuing (move forward) into the gap.
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 29, 2020 4:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Interesting - I have never heard of that interpretation before.

Looking at page 62 I do not believe it is correct. The first two paragraphs of "pursuit" on page 62 do not seem to allow an impetuous unit to avoid pursuit when in corner to corner contact - it is not one of the clauses in the second paragraph which exempt it and the note at the bottom of the page does not apply.

Although looking at the first exemption I see that the pursuit was optional and not mandatory.

The FAQ is silent on the subject - can you explain further why you think corner to corner contact allows and requires an impetuous unit to conform instead of pursuing?
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 29, 2020 8:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It is based on this in the FAQ. Yes it is flank to flank contact but is the situation you would be it if pursued straight ahead. Then in your next turn you would conform to the other artillery base. Conforming instead of pursuing has the same outcome but it flows better.

Impetuous conforming
Q : A unit of impetuous swordsmen is in flank to flank contact with an enemy spearmen unit. In their turn, what can the Impetuous swordsmen do ?
A : Being impetuous, the swordsmen must conform for free to initiate a melee with the spearmen on their flank, or charge another unit in range. Any other action will cost 3 CPs. Should they conform, they won’t get their Impact or Furious charge.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 29, 2020 10:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
It is based on this in the FAQ. Yes it is flank to flank contact but is the situation you would be it if pursued straight ahead. Then in your next turn you would conform to the other artillery base. Conforming instead of pursuing has the same outcome but it flows better.

Impetuous conforming
Q : A unit of impetuous swordsmen is in flank to flank contact with an enemy spearmen unit. In their turn, what can the Impetuous swordsmen do ?
A : Being impetuous, the swordsmen must conform for free to initiate a melee with the spearmen on their flank, or charge another unit in range. Any other action will cost 3 CPs. Should they conform, they won’t get their Impact or Furious charge.


This FAQ only covers the Impetuous units conforming in their own turn.

" In their turn, what can the Impetuous swordsmen do ?"

Conforming only happens in the movement phase, not after combat.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 30, 2020 3:14 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
It is based on this in the FAQ. Yes it is flank to flank contact but is the situation you would be it if pursued straight ahead. Then in your next turn you would conform to the other artillery base. Conforming instead of pursuing has the same outcome but it flows better.

Impetuous conforming
Q : A unit of impetuous swordsmen is in flank to flank contact with an enemy spearmen unit. In their turn, what can the Impetuous swordsmen do ?
A : Being impetuous, the swordsmen must conform for free to initiate a melee with the spearmen on their flank, or charge another unit in range. Any other action will cost 3 CPs. Should they conform, they won’t get their Impact or Furious charge.


Conforming instead of pursuing has a very different outcome
No need to advance, potentially exposing a vulnerable flank
Start combat in opponents bound, so a bound earlier than waiting for your own to conform in movement
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 11:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Page 55 first three paragraphs. The phasing player after a rout or disengage move is allow to conform if they are not in a position to support a friend this is compulsory if the unit is impetuous.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 4:47 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
Page 55 first three paragraphs. The phasing player after a rout or disengage move is allow to conform if they are not in a position to support a friend this is compulsory if the unit is impetuous.


These bullets all relate to the options allowed to/mandated for the active player who has the next move phase after the combats are resolved, and all only take place in the next movement phase.

The full FAQ entry about this is as follows:

Timing of conformation
Q : When can the units conform ?
A : Conformation can happen in 4 cases :
 Just after a charge, to align with the enemy.
 Just after a melee if a unit routs the opponent on its front and there is another opponent whose front is in contact with the unit’s flank or rear (as per p54). The conformation then replaces the pursuit.
 During a pursuit, if the pursuer contacts a new enemy. If that new unit is not automatically destroyed there are 2 alternative situations: 1. If the enemy contacted is not in melee, the enemy must conform immediately with the front of the pursuer, 2. If the enemy contacted is already engaged in melee, the pursuer immediately conforms, either supporting the friend in melee, or contacting the flank / rear of the enemy according to the axis of the pursuit (see support, page 50).
 In the movement phase of the player’s turn, to align with an opponent with which it is already in contact (for instance flank against flank, or corner against corner). This is detailed on p55 (Conforming after a melee). This conformation replaces the charge, which can’t take place because the units are already in contact.


To be fair, this often causes confusion and theres a very good argument to be made that this section of the rules would perhaps have been better located in the "movement" section of the rules to make this clearer.

I suspect it's one of a number of things in how the rules are organised that does make more logical sense in the original French, but is odd when using anglo-saxon syntax and logic.

Hope this helps !
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 5:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
Assuming the front edges of the artillery bases were in front corner to corner contact the when the med foot pursued it should have conformed to the front edge of the other artillery base. It is my understanding that impetuous troops conform to an unengaged enemy base they are in corner to corner contact with instead of pursuing (move forward) into the gap.

Never
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 5:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Coming back at first question ( about artillery).
See point by point
The fight occurs, dices are rolled, bad words are said. Artilery vanishes .
Either troops are corner to corner.
Impétuous swordmen (I hope they were gallic, hein!) must pursuing by 1 UD.
The round ends.
At the begining of following round, artillery is contact side by side (so romantic) with medium swordmen (I hope they are not ancient british)
So , page 55 conforming after a melee: "restrictions on contact remain valid"
so just go together, with our gallic and ancient british friends P52 "contact restriction "
" a fair player musn't have a affair with another player's wife or husband..."oups, wrong bullet
Try again:
P52 " warwagon and artillery can never charge an ennemy or enter into contact to provide support"
Wonderfull. This didn't answerd the question. So must we sacrified a victime "but neither gallic or ancient british warband, they are so cute, pay the umpire (what difference with a referee, n'est-il pas?) or do some vicious rule interprétation coming from deep hell cities inther you're sure to lose reason, and i can't remember the begin of thi sentence?
Se page 21 of british FAQ. Bullet about conformation: artillery and units behind conformation.
"WWG and artillery units never conform" . It's what's Hervé was thinking from the beginning but was never been wroten.

So, as entering in melee after side buy side contact is a conformation (i hope this is clear for every body, the first event i came back in UK i will give question with penalties for whom don't know answers...) and artillery can never conform, this may be the solution.

It's nice to give you short answers like this, you so avoid my very particular English....
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 5:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
Coming back at first question ( about artillery).
See point by point
The fight occurs, dices are rolled, bad words are said. Artilery vanishes .
Either troops are corner to corner.
Impétuous swordmen (I hope they were gallic, hein!) must pursuing by 1 UD.
The round ends.
At the begining of following round, artillery is contact side by side (so romantic) with medium swordmen (I hope they are not ancient british)
So , page 55 conforming after a melee: "restrictions on contact remain valid"
so just go together, with our gallic and ancient british friends P52 "contact restriction "
" a fair player musn't have a affair with another player's wife or husband..."oups, wrong bullet
Try again:
P52 " warwagon and artillery can never charge an ennemy or enter into contact to provide support"
Wonderfull. This didn't answerd the question. So must we sacrified a victime "but neither gallic or ancient british warband, they are so cute, pay the umpire (what difference with a referee, n'est-il pas?) or do some vicious rule interprétation coming from deep hell cities in there you're sure to lose reason, and i can't remember the beging of this sentence?

See page 21 of british FAQ. Bullet about conformation: artillery and units behind fortification.
"WWG and artillery units never conform" . It's what's Hervé was thinking from the beginning but was never been wroten.

So, as entering in melee after side buy side contact is a conformation (i hope this is clear for every body, the first event i came back in UK i will give question with penalties for whom don't know answers...) and artillery can never conform, this may be the solution.

It's nice to give you short answers like this, you so avoid my very particular English....

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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 9:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I miss read the original question and thought that the swordsmen and the second artillery base were in corner to corner contact after the first artillery base was removed in melee.
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Black Prince
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 9:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus thanks for your reply it does clear up some things, and fortunately I do not attend UK comps so I am safe.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 10:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
lionelrus thanks for your reply it does clear up some things, and fortunately I do not attend UK comps so I am safe.

What is comps?
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 06, 2020 10:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
Black Prince a écrit:
It is based on this in the FAQ. Yes it is flank to flank contact but is the situation you would be it if pursued straight ahead. Then in your next turn you would conform to the other artillery base. Conforming instead of pursuing has the same outcome but it flows better.

Impetuous conforming
Q : A unit of impetuous swordsmen is in flank to flank contact with an enemy spearmen unit. In their turn, what can the Impetuous swordsmen do ?
A : Being impetuous, the swordsmen must conform for free to initiate a melee with the spearmen on their flank, or charge another unit in range. Any other action will cost 3 CPs. Should they conform, they won’t get their Impact or Furious charge.


Conforming instead of pursuing has a very different outcome
No need to advance, potentially exposing a vulnerable flank
Start combat in opponents bound, so a bound earlier than waiting for your own to conform in movement

This may be a good idea for V4
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