Art De La Guerre

[alberto]

Interpenetration it's not allowed if the friendly units to be passed through it 's in melee or support : both kind of support ( simple and melee)

[madaxeman]

[Mike Bennett]

I remember under v3 an interpretation that an evading unit was allowed to pass through a unit in support. Does that still exist? Ie capitalised elements A, B, C are on side, z is an enemy. V3 interpretation allowed A to evade through B, although B was supporting C.

Az
BCD

I think the logic was that the player could choose that A provided the support and so B did not. This of course breaks down once the side of A no longer touches z, which would leave A trapped inside B as then it would be unable to interpenetrate any further.

[Ramses II]

Yes mike it does. Where there are two units in position to provide ‘simple support’ on the same side of the enemy (here units A & B) only one unit is permitted to do so. As you say, the player may choose which of A & B provides support. 
That unit continues to provide support until it moves away or is itself engaged in a separate melee. 

[Mike Bennett]

[harryKonst]

Maybe the logic is the same like the participating in battle commander. We care what is the situation at the moment we make the move. At that moment unit A could interpenetrate B according the rules. Like the commander who spends 1 more Command Point if he is engaged in battle at the start of the turn.

[madaxeman]

[Mike Bennett]

But the issue I have is ithat it allows the reverse. It is indeed sometimes possible to interpenetrate supporting units. Not that I was around in those days, but I imagine that this needs the openings up of ranks from a closed up combat formation adopted immediately close to the enemy, and seems wrong.

So net impact is that you can sometimes interpenetrate supporting units, ie. Units can evade or otherwise pass backwards through supporting elements, as long as they are so close that their flank edge touches the enemy unit in melee You cannot interpenetrate backwards if you are a little further away from them, nor ever forwards through them.

[Ramses II]

This discussion came about after someone presented a very tortuous scenario moving multiple units in such a way as to trap some light infantry in front of "supporting" heavier units that were engaged in a melee on the flank of the LI.

The more general situation occurs where the LI are forming a screen in front of heavier units, and end up in a position to provide simple support. Where this occurs***** and the LI are subsequently charged, they are permitted to stop supporting and evade back through the friendly units to their rear. That unit then provides simple support unless it is contacted by the charging enemy (or evades). eg

22

LI.11
AABBCC

Here if enemy unit 22 charges the LI (which have been declared to be providing simple support against the flank of 11), then the LI must evade (or be destroyed), interpenetrating AA behind them. AA then provides simple support to BB, unless it is contacted by 22 or itself decides to evade. I understand the concern about the "logic" behind such manoeuvring, but that was the original ruling AFAIR, and this is a game after all.

***** Note, "subtle" timing of the unit moves is required to achieve the situation in the first place, since the LI must contact the flank of the enemy after the initial contact is made by BB on the front of the enemy 11, and also either at the same time or before unit AA behind them (otherwise AA automatically provides simple support first). These intricacies are further complicated by the act of conformation which is a rules mechanism that is deemed to occur after movement has ended.
I am not saying that the situation is impossible, though it may be more unusual.

[fdunadan]

Yes in V3, the case was with a LI placed before an Elephant, wich was flanked by two units:

MI El MI
----LI

an attacker was spending 1 CP to charge the left MI, sliding not to touch the LI and then conforming, another CP to charge the right MI in the same condition:

MI El MI
xx LI xx

and then spend a third CP to charge the LI under the reasoning that the LI could not evade since the El was providing support.
it was an abuse of the spirit of the rule, so the LI could be the one providing support, evade and then the El was providing support (or fighting the charging unit)
_________________
Audentes fortuna iuvat.

[Mike Bennett]

Agreed it can stop an arguably cheesy manoeuvre, although whether it even needs to be stopped in debatable. The example in question will be rare, could cost 3 pips if not spontaneous, puts 2 unit’s into combat against enemy with a support disadvantage, and if the elphamt kills it must follow up and then fight without ever getting impact or furious change.

If still desired it would have been much clearer to simply and specifically allow an evade to interpenetrate. This could have been limited to LI or made more general. With the current interpretation:

1. It is strange that they can complete the interpenetration after the unit being passed in the only supporting unit
2. the LI could not evade through if they are not in contact with the enemies flank (as they are not providing support)
3. Other similarities interpenetrations through supporting units are also allowed, e.g LH through other mounted or vice versus, javelinmen through bowmen etc..