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CHAMPIONSHIP : END GAME PROCEDURE
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Commodore
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2012
Messages: 1194
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 30, 2021 9:56 am    Sujet du message: CHAMPIONSHIP : END GAME PROCEDURE Répondre en citant
Hi All,
It seems usefull to remind some rules to organizers and umpires concerning end game procedure.
Standard game duration is defined in the tournament Chart (Annex 1 para 6).
Any game duration change must be clearly announced to players before the game start.
A game must last at least 7 turns if no decisive result is obtain. (Annex3 para3)
End game time proximity must be announced 30 minutes before the limit
Out of a victorious game , a game always ends at the end of the defender`s turn. (Annex3 para3).
“Dice down†procedure is not authorized in championship tournament.
Blitz procedure is applied upon umpire decision.
Each player has 3 minutes from this moment to move units. Shooting and combats are quickly solved out of time recording.
Blitz last up to the end of 7th defender`s turn.

Hubert Bretagne
Technical team director
Championship Committee
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 01, 2021 9:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi guys

I had not seen these rules before they were pointed out at the london GT. They are applicable for events submitted to the statistics section on this site. Clearly organisers can freely choose whether they wish to comply and then upload based on self policing, as it is only a hobby after all. For anyone who is interested, full rules are on http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/upload/events/en/organization/Spreadsheets%20for%20individual%20tournament/Tournament%20Organization%20Charter%20-%20Art%20De%20La%20Guerre.pdf

In the UK we also have the parallel BHGS rankings, so 2 chances to get the ranking we deserve, without counting the ELO system as well!!. They are just a bit of fun to chat about in the pub, and take the micky out of friends. If they start to get taken too seriously or negatively influence behaviour they should be dropped anyway.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 01, 2021 2:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
what is dice down, ô great salty dog?
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 01, 2021 3:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
“Dice down†is when the umpire calls “timeâ€, and players either stop immediately, or they play to the end of the current phase (melee, shooting, movement etc) 

This is very common in the UK, and means the organisation of the next round is much improved as all games end and submit results quickly allowing players to go to the pub or start tbe next round all together 

Of course this system is the same for all players in the tournament, so no one has an advantage or disadvantage from it.

Sometimes this can work in your favour, sometimes against you - but then again, so can every single dice roll you make in tbe game as well. 

I am sure this will remain a popular system in the UK and elsewhere as it prioritises social time over regarding the game as something serious and official. 
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Sam Oct 02, 2021 12:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
...all games end and submit results quickly allowing players to go to the pub ...

More importantly, it means the organiser doesn't lose 40 minutes of richly deserved drinking time waiting for the last pair to finish. Embarassed
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 03, 2021 11:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
For tournaments I organise (mainly Sgian-Dubh) I will continue to use the 'dice-down' option. There are two reasons
1. Organisation of the tournament is far easier (main reason).
2. To continue to end of defenders turn can give the defender an advantage. The defender knows they are going last so can avoid needless command point expenditure and use points to put units in support positions normally too risky or rally up units where they normally wouldn't.

If this means Sgian-Dubh can't be included in the championship then so be it.
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kevinj
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017
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Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 9:36 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
For the Northern League rounds that I organise we often have a hard finish time for the venue that we are using and have only short breaks between rounds. For that reason we can't let games carry on beyond the finish time and will need to continue to use the end of the current phase as the stopping point when time is called.
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Commodore
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2012
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Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 10:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
For tournaments I organise (mainly Sgian-Dubh) I will continue to use the 'dice-down' option. There are two reasons
1. Organisation of the tournament is far easier (main reason).
2. To continue to end of defenders turn can give the defender an advantage. The defender knows they are going last so can avoid needless command point expenditure and use points to put units in support positions normally too risky or rally up units where they normally wouldn't.

If this means Sgian-Dubh can't be included in the championship then so be it.


Well copied and understood for Sgian Dubh, the tournament will not be included in the championship

DT Championship committee
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Commodore
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 10:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
kevinj a écrit:
For the Northern League rounds that I organise we often have a hard finish time for the venue that we are using and have only short breaks between rounds. For that reason we can't let games carry on beyond the finish time and will need to continue to use the end of the current phase as the stopping point when time is called.


well copied for Northern Ligue rounds they will be not included in championship

DT Championship committee
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AlanCutner
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 3:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hubert

I don't understand why the endgame rules have to be so prescriptive. Surely it doesn't matter how the endgame works as long as it stated in advance and applies equally to all players.
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Commodore
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 4:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Hubert

I don't understand why the endgame rules have to be so prescriptive. Surely it doesn't matter how the endgame works as long as it stated in advance and applies equally to all players.


Hi Alan,
This post is following several players claims about tournament ending.
All tournament have to comply same rules in order to maintain a fair and equitable championship. It is why the tournament chart has been written.
There are plenty of tournament who are not counting for championship, including, for example, the one i attend this week-end with Julian.
It is just a matter of choice from the organizer, It is their tournament, they conduct it exactly as they want.
Nevertheless, all championship tournament have to follow the same rules.
The rulebook says (p69) rout that an end game is checked at the end of either player.
In addition , the tournament chart says that the game is ending at the end of defender turn and after a minimum of 7 turn if there is no victory.
The first rule is incompatible with the "dice down" , the 2nd rule with the "abrupt stop "at the end of any phase regardless the number of played turn.
Again it is not mandatory for a tournament to count for championship.
Organizers freedom is the rule, but championship chart observance also.
Cheers
Hubert
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 5:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Hubert

I don't understand why the endgame rules have to be so prescriptive. Surely it doesn't matter how the endgame works as long as it stated in advance and applies equally to all players.


The Technical Board was created on August 7th 2015 by the author, with the following mission statement :
“To ensure that the greatest number of players have the pleasure of coming to play in a tournament

Rolling Eyes
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AlanCutner
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 5:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hubert, with all respect I think you're being pedantic. None of the 'alternate' finish methods contravene the RAW rules in any major way. However the championship instructions bring in new rules not in the book, ie minimum number of turns and blitz. So some rules are allowed to be changed or introduced, but other minor ones are not allowed.

You are the boss on the championship and I respect your right to manage it how you see fit. But for inclusivity I would prefer to see more flexibility. And on that I'll shut-up.
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Commodore
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 6:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
AlanCutner a écrit:
Hubert

I don't understand why the endgame rules have to be so prescriptive. Surely it doesn't matter how the endgame works as long as it stated in advance and applies equally to all players.


The Technical Board was created on August 7th 2015 by the author, with the following mission statement :
“To ensure that the greatest number of players have the pleasure of coming to play in a tournament

Rolling Eyes


And the V3 26/12/2017 tournament chart has been submitted and approved by the author.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 12, 2021 10:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Commodore a écrit:
madaxeman a écrit:
AlanCutner a écrit:
Hubert

I don't understand why the endgame rules have to be so prescriptive. Surely it doesn't matter how the endgame works as long as it stated in advance and applies equally to all players.


The Technical Board was created on August 7th 2015 by the author, with the following mission statement :
“To ensure that the greatest number of players have the pleasure of coming to play in a tournament

Rolling Eyes


And the V3 26/12/2017 tournament chart has been submitted and approved by the author.


In 2017?

That is ancient history.

I do not think I have ever played in a tournament since then where all of these rule have been fully applied.... so it seems strange to suddenly decide to start to apply them now, after 4 years of results going succesfully into the Global Rankings system from perhaps hundreds of events which have certainly not applied, or even been aware of the existence of these rules.

Perhaps also if El Kreator can write us a v4 of the rules since 2017 taking into account international player experience, he can also look at whether a set of tournament rules which has a higher word count than v4 also needs perhaps to be reviewed in the light of considerable player (and tournament organiser) experience since 2017 all of which says many of these rules are unnecessary and impossible to enforce?


If we cannot learn anything from all of this history since 2017 ... then "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" indeed.... Rolling Eyes
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