Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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 Posté le: Mer Nov 17, 2021 4:03 am Sujet du message: Stakes, Battle-ready, and moves |
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There is a somewhat ruffled discussion on the French folder about whether one can rally and deploy stakes in the same turn. There seems to be some understanding of how the rules fit or should fit together.
It looks like:
Placing or removing stakes and becoming or recovering from battle-ready formation are each considered a move order.
Becoming battle-ready may be combined with a ½ or ¼ turn as a single move order (2CP).
WWg may not recover from battle-ready and then become battle-ready in the same turn.
I presume that archers moving in operational space with the corps commander may advance-advance-place stakes, the last as a difficult manoeuvre;
or place stakes-remove stakes-replace stakes(2CP) if they so choose 
Rally cannot be combined with any other move order except a hold.
Comments?
[Well let's spice it up a bit. Can the archers advance once to 4UD from a target, then place stakes, then shoot? Archers cannot move twice and shoot, but "Units [placing or removing stakes] cannot move but can shoot." I think the answer it that that sentence makes no sense and should be stricken.]
Dernière édition par Za Otlichiye le Mer Nov 17, 2021 6:37 pm; édité 1 fois |
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Nov 17, 2021 8:53 am Sujet du message: |
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| Placing/removing stakes counts as movement. So, in tactical distance you either move or you place stakes or you rally. |
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madaxeman
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1474
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
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| Posté le: Mer Nov 17, 2021 5:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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I’m content to wait for the discussion on the French forum to resolve itself, and then accept whatever they decide.Â
I can’t see what we can possibly add (or gain) by “spicing it up†here to be honest.Â
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www.madaxeman.com |
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fdunadan
Tribun
Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
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| Posté le: Mer Nov 17, 2021 5:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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Outside tactical distance you can remove stakes - move- place stakes. 3 moves so general attached and 4 CP.
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Audentes fortuna iuvat. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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| Posté le: Ven Nov 19, 2021 8:06 pm Sujet du message: |
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| madaxeman a écrit: | I’m content to wait for the discussion on the French forum to resolve itself, and then accept whatever they decide.Â
I can’t see what we can possibly add (or gain) by “spicing it up†here to be honest. |
"Spicing it up" is a, failed, attempt to elicit some less predictable responses.
I think the rules are very good and very fairly priced. I am disappointed by the level of support which at present consists of going through all the postings here and learning where there are difficulties and what various opinions on them are. This particular issue was raised before and it's a shame it wasn't resolved before it put the French referee on the spot in a podium match. So I think a thorough exposition can only help. Certainly beats arguing errata isn't necessary or suggesting one just asks Fred.
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The relevant line about stakes is found on page 20:
| Citation: |
Placing or removing Stakes requires 1 CP. Units cannot move but can shoot.
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Why wouldn't they be allowed to shoot? Turning to Shooting, page 56 we fiind the only relevant limitation is:
| Citation: |
Other units (including light artillery) can shoot after they have moved as long as they have not made a second or third move.
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So either the stakes rules saying: placing or removing stakes is not a "move" for the purpose of shooting, and you can remove stakes, advance, place stakes, shoot;
or it's saying even though placing or removing takes up the entire 1, 2, or 3 move movement phase, you can still shoot..
Since the stakes rule also says you cannot move, it seems the plain meaning of the rule is that removing or placing stakes is the only thing you can do in the movement phase
Turning to the very similar battle-ready rules, which represent
| Citation: |
deploying stakes chains and mantelets
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on page 14 we find:
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It cost 1 CP and the WWg must not be in melee. At the same time, the WWg can also make a quarter or hal turn on the spot (+1 CP) which represent the deployment of the wagons.
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and
| Citation: |
A Battle-ready WWg that wants to move must first spend 1 CP to recover its stakes, chains and mantelets. It can then move during the same phase but they cannot become Battle-ready again in the same phase.
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But, but, but war wagons can only move twice in a movement phase (page 34). If changing Battle-ready status is a "move" then they can't leave, advance, enter anyway. So the plain meaning of these rules suggests changing Battle-ready status is not a "move" and just an added cost.
Neither plain readings address the question of whether these are "moves" for the purpose of Rallying (page 55).
Now this has all been discussed and no one seems comfortable with two such different ways of handling a similar action. The consensus seems to be that these do count as 1 of the 1, 2, or 3 moves allowed during a movement phase, and therefore forbid rallying, and as a 2d or 3d move forbid shooting. Which seems quite reasonable. However, it's invention and not something found in the rule book.
This is all a molehill not a mountain, of course. But it doesn't need to be on the lawn. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Ven Nov 19, 2021 8:17 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Za Otlichiye a écrit: | The relevant line about stakes is found on page 20:
| Citation: |
Placing or removing Stakes requires 1 CP. Units cannot move but can shoot.
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. . . . Snip . . . .
or it's saying even though placing or removing takes up the entire 1, 2, or 3 move movement phase, you can still shoot..
Since the stakes rule also says you cannot move, it seems the plain meaning of the rule is that removing or placing stakes is the only thing you can do in the movement phase
. . . . . Snip . . . .
This is all a molehill not a mountain, of course. But it doesn't need to be on the lawn. |
A very small molehill indeed, since you have already noted the answer; - placing / removing stakes replaces movement, though this action does not in itself prevent shooting.
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