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Longbow shooting armoured elephant
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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micheni
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 11
MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 28, 2021 3:32 pm    Sujet du message: Longbow shooting armoured elephant Répondre en citant
What is the factor for an elephant with armour ability when shot at by a unit of longbowmen_´;
1 or 0 ; cause in page 58 it talks about longbow reduces the BASIC protection by 1 and armour ability is not Basic protection value
Thx in advance !
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 28, 2021 3:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If it is a crossbow, the factor is 0 (p 58 )
if it is a longbow, the factor is 0 (p 58 )
basically, the protection is 1 for the armor and the longbow give a -1, so 0.
In french version, longbow reduce the protection of everyone by 1, except for Wwg, Art, LI and LH.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
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Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 28, 2021 7:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Don't forget the +1 for bow and crossbow shooting mounted.
The English version says the same - except perhaps it says the basic protection is reduced by one. This gets even more confusing with Knights, etc. who have their armor benefits included in their Protection factors on page 22 table.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 28, 2021 8:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The basic protection includes all armors.
Ie heavy lancer armored has a basic protection of 2
Armored elephant has basic protection 1
In fact, armor increases basic protection. The notion of basic protection is use to made difference between protection in tne open and protection in forest, by exemple.
Be a bowman in plantation shooting by a longbowman. The target has a protection of +1 due to plantation. As his basic protection is 0, the longbowman don't reduce the peotection.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 28, 2021 8:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
While on the subject, does:
Citation:

The protection of Pavises plus the protection of armour cannot exceed 3 points in total.

mean Foot Knights do not benefit from Pavises? Otherwise 1+2 cannot exceed 3...
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 29, 2021 5:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
The basic protection includes all armors.
Ie heavy lancer armored has a basic protection of 2
Armored elephant has basic protection 1
In fact, armor increases basic protection. The notion of basic protection is use to made difference between protection in tne open and protection in forest, by exemple.
Be a bowman in plantation shooting by a longbowman. The target has a protection of +1 due to plantation. As his basic protection is 0, the longbowman don't reduce the peotection.


That is a clever way of doing it, I do like the subtleties in these rules.
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 29, 2021 6:47 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
lionelrus a écrit:
The basic protection includes all armors.
Ie heavy lancer armored has a basic protection of 2
Armored elephant has basic protection 1
In fact, armor increases basic protection. The notion of basic protection is use to made difference between protection in tne open and protection in forest, by exemple.
Be a bowman in plantation shooting by a longbowman. The target has a protection of +1 due to plantation. As his basic protection is 0, the longbowman don't reduce the peotection.


That is a clever way of doing it, I do like the subtleties in these rules.


Cover gives a -1 to the shooter, not a +1 to the target.
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 29, 2021 10:58 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes, you are correct, my mistake.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 29, 2021 8:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Za Otlichiye a écrit:
While on the subject, does:
Citation:

The protection of Pavises plus the protection of armour cannot exceed 3 points in total.

mean Foot Knights do not benefit from Pavises? Otherwise 1+2 cannot exceed 3...


As i can remenber, Kn never have pavise.
basic protection of foot kn is 3.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 29, 2021 8:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:
Black Prince a écrit:
lionelrus a écrit:
The basic protection includes all armors.
Ie heavy lancer armored has a basic protection of 2
Armored elephant has basic protection 1
In fact, armor increases basic protection. The notion of basic protection is use to made difference between protection in tne open and protection in forest, by exemple.
Be a bowman in plantation shooting by a longbowman. The target has a protection of +1 due to plantation. As his basic protection is 0, the longbowman don't reduce the peotection.


That is a clever way of doing it, I do like the subtleties in these rules.


Cover gives a -1 to the shooter, not a +1 to the target.


Well, so i give official TB answer:
basic protection include all armor and pavise protection.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 30, 2021 12:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:

Well, so i give official TB answer:
basic protection include all armor and pavise protection.


Well that is a surprise. I had anticipated armour, but not pavise. So crossbow with pavise are no better than without when shot at by longbow.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 30, 2021 2:01 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Lionelrus, I agree with you that the basic factor includes the armour bonus.
  • So the armoured elephant would have a basic factor of 0 +1 = 1
  • A unit of crossbowmen shooting at an elephant would cause it’s basic factor to be “1†irrespective of the armour,
  • A unit of longbowmen would reduce the elephant’s basic factor to “0†irrespective of the armour. 
However, Pavisse (P59) adds +1 to the unit after the crossbow / firearm / longbow modifier is applied (but not artillery or incendiary).
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 30, 2021 8:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Hi Lionelrus, I agree with you that the basic factor includes the armour bonus.
  • So the armoured elephant would have a basic factor of 0 +1 = 1
  • A unit of crossbowmen shooting at an elephant would cause it’s basic factor to be “1†irrespective of the armour,
  • A unit of longbowmen would reduce the elephant’s basic factor to “0†irrespective of the armour. 
However, Pavisse (P59) adds +1 to the unit after the crossbow / firearm / longbow modifier is applied (but not artillery or incendiary).


Mike and Ramses are right, of course.... Embarassed
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micheni
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 02, 2022 2:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[quote="Ramses II"]Hi Lionelrus, I agree with you that the basic factor includes the armour bonus.
  • So the armoured elephant would have a basic factor of 0 +1 = 1
  • A unit of crossbowmen shooting at an elephant would cause it’s basic factor to be “1†irrespective of the armour,
  • A unit of longbowmen would reduce the elephant’s basic factor to “0†irrespective of the armour. 
However, Pavisse (P59) adds +1 to the unit after the crossbow / firearm / longbow modifier is applied (but not artillery or incendiary).[/quot




All units except elephants have protection 0 when shot at by xbows
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 02, 2022 2:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
micheni a écrit:
All units except elephants have protection 0 when shot at by xbows



No.

All units except WWg and El have a protection of 1 when shot at by XBows. (Do not add anything for armor or heavy armor.) Not 0.
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