Art De La Guerre

[ALEXANDER]

Just to be sure.

An ordinary general has a command range of 4 UD.
Unfortunatly the units on the picture on Page 26 are just 3 UD
and 6 UD away from the commander

Imagine the is a line of 10 units
6 Medium Cav to the left and 4 Light Cav on the right
The ordinary General is included in the MC*

MC*MC1MC2MC3MC4MC5LC1LC2LC3LC4

Are the unIts MC5 and LC4 still in command range?
...or out of command range
(for a single unit movement !!!)

[Ramses II]

Yes. You have two groups, both in command range. The MC group is directly commanded by the general, and the LC which is in command up to 8UD range. 

[madaxeman]

… and a group can only be 6 units wide for movement … 
_________________
www.madaxeman.com

[Za Otlichiye]

I believe Alexander is asking if a unit is at command range limit, is it in command? - I don't see any reason it would not be.

[ALEXANDER]

Sorry but this was not my questiom.
I know that its possible to move as 2 groups.

I would like to know whether MC5 is within 4 UD of the General MC*

and whether LC4 is within 8 UD of MC*

Are those 2 units in command range or out?

Thank you Otlichiye.
You understood my question 😁

[Hazelbark]

So you are asking about the UD range is how to measure distance? You are asking is "at" 4 UD in command is the same as "within" 4 UD for command range purposes.

I "think" mathematically. Each of the 4 units is a UD wide. Therefore that is a 4 UD measure. The infinitesimal distance to the next units is clearly more than 4 UD.

Also based on p25 based on wording "within"
plus
the first two bullets under range measurement imply an infinitesimal angle of measurement further ensuring you are not "at"

So since I don't think you are really "at" and the rules suggest you need to be "within"

If a unit was the 5th unit (4 intervening) away it is not in a 4 UD radius.

[Ramses II]

Ok, assuming that all units are next to each other, MC5 is at 5UD from the edge of MC. So it is out of command range of an ordinary general included in MC, but insisde command range of a better general. LC5 is at 9UD from MC, so is likewise out of command range of an ordinary general.

For an ordinary general to move either unit individually would take 2CP, though it would be only 1CP if they are part of a group that is in command range. 

[Za Otlichiye]

Too much brandy, gents!
The units are 4UD and 8UD away.
"Within" (in English) is less than or equal to.
At any rate, compare page 35 the definition of ZoC - there is a lot of emphasis on the "not equals" bit...

[ALEXANDER]

[Ramses II]

My bad, you are correct of course, MC5 and LC4 are at 4UD and 8UD respectively as the others have noted, while the text states "Units or group must be in command range from their commander:".
I agree with Hazlebark that being "at" is not the same as being "in" (or within). so in this case the player would need to pay 2CP to move either unit separately.

Note, this is a boundary case where "at" is excluded in the same way that strategic movement is defined as taking place "outside tactical distance (at exactly 4 UD or more) from all enemy units, " (P34) while shooting is permitted at targets that are "within range and within its shooting zone" (p57)

[AlanCutner]

I don't have the rules with me. But one of the changes in V4 was to consistently make 'within' distance to be less than xUD, not 'at' xUD. For example ZOC is specified as less than 1UD, but not 'at' 1UD. Using that principle (and without checking the rules) I assume command distance is less than xUD, but not 'at' xUD.

[KevinD]

The diagram on the bottom of page 26 is clear that a unit is “in command range” if it is at exactly the distance listed on the top of page 26. (4 UD for non-lights from an Ordinary Commander.) C is exactly 4 UD from an Ordinary Commander and can be given an order for only 1 CP. D (a light unit) is in command range because it is exactly 8 UD from the Ordinary Commander. (“… the command range is doubled for light troops and equals 8 UD in this case.”)

The unit (B) that is out of command range is out because it is “more than 4 UD” from the Ordinary Commander. (Not >= 4 UD.)

[Ramses II]

Alan is correct that V4 was changed in this respect for consistency.
The diagram you refer to is explanatory (that unit B is out of command range) rather than detailing how command range is measured. So, I repeat that if you can place a measure that just touches the edges of two units they are "at" the measured distance, not "within" or "in" the distance.
(Check the definition of Zone of Control for a worked example of being "in" the ZoC.)

So here, being "at" 4UD is out of command range.

[KevinD]

[ALEXANDER]

I am not really convinced of this rule interpretation either.

The rules page 26 about range measurement, 6th sentence expressly state that you have to expend an extra command point if you are out of command range
...and the commsnd range is 4UD

on Page 35 ZOC there is a Instrukction for measuring
...place a marker 1UD square adjacent..
...if the marker merely touches the units base then the unit...
....is ecactly one UD from the enemy

CONSEQUENTLY....if you can place 4 marker between those two units they are exactly at 4 UD .... not out of 4 UD.


I cannot find the term beeing
at command range
in the rules about command range

This term is used in the rules for shooting to define
that units at 4 UD distance are still within shooting range

If beeing at 4 UD now is defined as beeing out of command range
does it results in beeing out of shooting range too?

I assume this is just a problem of translation
How is the french original