Art De La Guerre
Bienvenue sur le forum de discussion de la règle de jeu l'Art De La Guerre
 
FAQFAQ RechercherRechercher Liste des MembresListe des Membres Groupes d'utilisateursGroupes d'utilisateurs S'enregistrerS'enregistrer
ProfilProfil Se connecter pour vérifier ses messages privésSe connecter pour vérifier ses messages privés ConnexionConnexion
Does a cancelled ability still cancel abilities?
Page 3 sur 3 Aller à la page Précédente  1, 2, 3
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Auteur Message
SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 01, 2022 7:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
To my friends:

Za - I have consistently held that in the modified situation I proposed that the foot should not count armor in the first phase of combat. I might be wrong about this of course. I did not respond to your assertion that 90% of players agreed with you just figuring I belonged in the 10%


Daveallen - you make two points

"The original issue was could a unit that had the Furious charge ability get the benefit of that ability cancelling it's opponent's Armour ability in situations where the Furious charge ability did not apply. The answer to that was "obviously not.""

It seems reasonable to a person reading the English versions of the rules but it is not obvious. That is why I asked.



You also say - "as "It's not properly the capacity, but only the effect which is cancelled." Along with an explanation that says one of the effects of the ability which is cancelled/doesn't apply does apply. I am genuinely mystified as to what that means"

I also had trouble parsing the answer. But it is by no means an official ruling. We'll see if we get one of those.



I thought your situation about a unit with missile support ability contacted on the flank was excellent. In the same vein as the original question we have an ability which cancels an ability itself canceled.

However like I keep saying you cant reason by analogy in these rules and I could see the author making a distinction between an ability which intrinsically cancels and cancellation due to a flank contact.


I do think this needs clarification, even if the francophones are united in their understanding. I'm certainly confused.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 02, 2022 8:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:
[EDITED]

[see my next post for further rules that clarify this, somewhat]


The original issue was could a unit that had the Furious charge ability get the benefit of that ability cancelling it's opponent's Armour ability in situations where the Furious charge ability did not apply. The answer to that was "obviously not."

Then it was asked if the phrase "is cancelled" in the French version of the rules had been mistranslated as "does not apply" in the English. We haven't had a response on that point. Though we have been told that "philosophically" it doesn't matter as "It's not properly the capacity, but only the effect which is cancelled." Along with an explanation that says one of the effects of the ability which is cancelled (or doesn't apply) does apply. I am genuinely mystified as to what that means [mystery resolved, I suspect Lionel was bamboozled by the question being about cancelation of an ability that does not apply, see my next post]


So there are several linked questions here:

1) Does the cancelation of a unit's Special ability mean the unit does not have that ability? [no, see my next post]

2) If the unit still "has" the cancelled Special ability should some of its effects still apply? For instance if a unit's Furious charge ability has been cancelled by a flank attack should the unit still get the benefit of cancelling its frontal opponent's Armour ability?[yes, see my next post]

3) Is there any difference between a Special ability not applying in some circumstances and it being cancelled in other circumstances. In particular the case of Furious charge not applying against Missile supported foot and being cancelled by a flank attack.[there does seem to be a difference, see my next post]

(Note) It's interesting that there are only two cases of an Ability being cancelled where one of the benefits of that ability (Furious charge arising from Impacts) is specifically mentioned as still applying. (See the rule on page 22 below) Which suggests that logically (if not philosophically Wink ) other cancelations are complete.[wrong Embarassed, see my next post]

The rules in question here are:

    Page 17, Armour and heavy armour, para 4:
    Citation:
    In combat, Armour and Heavy armour abilities are cancelled in the following cases:

      During the first round of a melee if the enemy has Furious charge (even if losing the melee),
      ...

    Page 18, Furious charge, para 3, bp 4:
    Citation:
    Furious charge does not apply in the following cases:
      ...
      Against foot with Missile support ability when charged by mounted units.
      ...

    Page 22, Unit Characteristics Table, notes re the effects of MSp, HSp, Pike and Swordsmen:
    Citation:
    * Cancels the Impact of mounted (except Elephant) if receiving the charge on the front. Furious charge is still applicable.
    ** Cancels the Impact of Impetuous swordsmen if receiving the charge on the front. Furious charge is still applicable.

    Page 63, Flank or rear attack, bp2:
    Citation:
    2HW, Impact, Javelin, Polearm, Furious charge and Misslie support abilities are cancelled even if attacked [on the flank] by light troops or if the attacker is not fully conformed.



I hope that helps.

Dave

Further rules on this:

Page 63, Melee Modifiers, Special Abilities, Receiving a charge on the front:
Citation:
These abilities apply only if the unit is charged by an enemy on its front edge. If the unit is charging or if the enemy is charging the unit on the flank or rear these special abilities do no apply.


Page 63, Melee Modifiers, Flank or rear attack, bp3:
Citation:
A unit cannot cancel the abilities of enemies that are in melee against its flank or its rear (eg troops with Impact cancelling the Javelin ability or Spearmen cancelling the Impact ability of mounted units). The unit still cancels the ability of any enemy attacking from the front even if the unit has other enemies in melee support against its flank or rear.

NB Impact and Furious charge abilities apply if the unit charges or receives the charge on its front edge.

Page 64, Melee Modifiers, Terrain modifier, Mounted units, bp3:
Citation:
Mounted units that are in terrain that penalises them in melee do not have the Impact or Furious charge abilities.


Which makes sense of Lionel's comments about the cancellation of an ability leaving a residual "cancelling effect" of that ability in play. I would assume therefore that an Impact MCv charged in front by Armoured HSp and flank by another unit doesn't get the +1 for Impact or the extra cohesion loss arising from Furious charge as both are cancelled, but does retain the Furious charge benefit of cancelling the HSp's Armour.

Which only leaves the question:

Does this residual "cancelling effect" exist in situations where the ability does not apply?

For instance, Impact MCv charged in the flank by Armoured HSwd.

Or Impact MCv charging the front of Armoured HSwd with Missile Support.

I'd say not, but, as SteveR rightly points out, it's dangerous to argue by analogy in these rules.

Dave

PS Thanks to Jesse (Longtooth) for pointing me towards these rules.
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence


Dernière édition par daveallen le Mer Mar 02, 2022 10:12 am; édité 3 fois
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 02, 2022 9:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There is, however, an anomaly on page 20:

Page 20, Missile support, bp2:
Citation:
The Furious charge of mounted units (but not that of foot) is cancelled if mounted charge a unit with Missile support ability on its front.


Should that read "does not apply"

Dave

PS Thanks again to Jesse (longtooth) for catching this.
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 02, 2022 3:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dave,
I don't think it's fruitful to attempt to distinguish "cancel" from "not apply". It's a subtle distinction that would be useless without careful definitions which the rules avoid. They may well mean the same thing.
I think we need to first establish whether a Special Ability which loses its die modifying bonus still retains its ability to affect the opponent's Special Abilities, as lionelrus suggested. then we can catalog all the instances where Abilities interact and confirm them.
Za
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 02, 2022 5:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Za Otlichiye a écrit:
Dave,
I don't think it's fruitful to attempt to distinguish "cancel" from "not apply". It's a subtle distinction that would be useless without careful definitions which the rules avoid. They may well mean the same thing.
I think we need to first establish whether a Special Ability which loses its die modifying bonus still retains its ability to affect the opponent's Special Abilities, as lionelrus suggested. then we can catalog all the instances where Abilities interact and confirm them.
Za

We aren't going to resolve this in this forum. My intent in laying this out in detail wasn't to win an argument here (likely impossible) but to give the DT cause to issue a definitive FAQ and resolve what is a potential area of dispute. The situation for cancelled abilities is (imo) already unambiguous so all that's needed is a statement about whether abilities that don't apply are treated differently or the same. Or perhaps revisiting some of those cases.

They seem to have noticed and I'm confident we will have a decision fairly soon.

Dave
_________________
Putting the ink into incompetence
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 02, 2022 9:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:


...

For instance, Impact MCv charged in the flank by Armoured HSwd.

...



I don't think it matters what state the Furious Charge is in, because it only exists through the front edge.

Though I suppose the DT should think about it. It's already pretty funky. "LH impact" has Impact, but "LH" has Furious Charge only when fighting LI. Make the concept of inherent Special Ability pretty fuzzy.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 20, 2022 5:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I respectfully ask the Rules Committee to give us the courtesy of an answer to the basic question on this thread.

Asked 6 months ago, it is a simple and fundamental issue. The query generated a lot of confusion best understood by reading through the thread. It has not received a definitive answer from an authority nor the recent errata.

---

Heavy swordsmen with armor and missile support are charged by impact Medium Cavalry. The Cv rolls a 4, the HI a 2. What is the result?

The swordmen have a base factor of 1.
The cavalry has a base factor of 0 and add +1 for impact.
The difference is zero.

The cavalry has rolled up 2 and so win.

The cavalry has Furious charge which would add an additional cohesion hit, but it is cancelled by Missile support.
Missile support will reduce the difference by 1 (after applying Armour benefits).
The swordsmen, having lost, but having Armour where the cavalry have none, would further reduce the difference by 1. Furious charge cancels Armour benefit.

Is the final difference 0 or 1?
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 20, 2022 6:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
aFTER DICE ROLL, DIFFERENCE IS + 2 for cavalry
HI armor doesn't apply in first round, CV 's furious charge cancels armor
HI has support , so difference is +1 for Cv
Hi suffers 1 lost.
Mi has furious charge, but it's canceled by support.
So lost remains at 1
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 31, 2022 1:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Lionel, thank you for replying. That's how I read your original post, but I was a bit uncertain I had got it right. I've chief reffed youth football for a time, so I hope I don't come across as questioning your knowledge of AdlG. But your reading is so astonishing to me that I really hope to get some confirmation.

The first difficulty is that it appears Furious charge has two benefits - the auto hit on victory and the cancellation of Armour. So, if Furious charge is cancelled, one would expect both benefits to be cancelled. Okay, so the auto hit is a benefit which is cancelled, and the cancellation of Armour is simply a condition on Armour working? Sorry the rules need a much more explicit textual presentation to get that point across! (SteveR's precociousness not withstanding Wink).

If Missile support does not prevent Furious charge from cancelling Armor, then neither does obstacles, Stakes, fortifications, or penalizing rough or difficult terrain. One might accept this as a game balancing tweak, but as a narrative, it's difficult to see how a lancer poking at an armored opponent behind a rock has quite the same penetration as at full gallop over a meadow. So again, the text must emphasize the point.

While I would assume it's obvious a unit cannot "have" Furious charge on a flank/rear edge, "have" does not make that distinction.

And does this apply to only to Furious charge x Armour? That is:

Missile support has both its benefits listed together on page 20. Does this mean that if Missile support is cancelled, both benefits are lost? Or, like Furious charge, does Missile support lose its die modifying ability, but retain its power to cancel Furious charge?

Is the Javeliin +1 still lost if the opponent's Impact is cancelled?

If mounted loses their Impact, do charging Impact foot get to count it?

If knights lose their Impact do Capharacts get to count theirs?

---

I was hoping the recent errata would add a few words to clarify all this, because otherwise, I don't have a clue, and from the sound of crickets, I'm guessing no one else does either.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 31, 2022 4:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
An old topic from V3...
http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7931
http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7507
http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5651&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4008
http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4256
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 07, 2022 11:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hey Lionel - 40% of those links were my questions. You'd think I'd have this figured out by now. To be fair things are more explicit in V4.


This situation came up again this past weekend in Lisbon.

I had a unit of Light Infantry with Jav charge a unit of Medium Sword Impact in a woods. Then a unit of cavalry charged the Medium Sword in the flank.

The Medium Sword lose the effect of their impact, but as they have the impact characteristic the LI do not get the benefit of their Javelins.

They still did just fine in the combat though, as was to be expected. Even if I did lose the game.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
  
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Page 3 sur 3 Aller à la page Précédente  1, 2, 3
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet Toutes les heures sont au format GMT

 
Sauter vers:  
Vous ne pouvez pas poster de nouveaux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas éditer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas supprimer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas voter dans les sondages de ce forum