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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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 Posté le: Mar Juil 05, 2022 11:06 pm Sujet du message: |
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| LH perhaps? The specific exception that allows you to ignore LI which much evade would still hold. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 05, 2022 11:27 pm Sujet du message: |
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@Zoltan
Your objections are the reason for this thread, because this is no longer V3. And yes, this does potentially open the door to ‘cunning ploys’, but that is the nature of the game.  |
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SteveR
Prétorien
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 284
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 05, 2022 11:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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@Ramses "The key phrase is without passing through any enemy units."
Agreed. However note that in the original situation posed by Kevin unit BB can reach unit 22 without passing through any enemy units.
This and the plural was what was messing me up.
But understanding that the letter group cannot reach the number group without going through 11 does help.
It also seems that in step 1 a player does not really choose a target unit - the target unit is determined by the line the group charges on subject to the normal charge restrictions.
So this has been helpful. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mar Juil 05, 2022 11:53 pm Sujet du message: |
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Glad to be of serviceÂ
And yes, basically the first steps combine to define and confirm the Initial Target. |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 11:54 am Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | As I said originally, I posted this because it has become clear that some people were unaware of this subtle but important change in the rules. And I must apologize; I used the term "single target" for simplicity. In practice this is the unit or units that will be contacted first simultaneously (ie without passing through any enemy units). We then use Steps #5, #6 or #7 to determine how the chargers move and conform etc.
Using your example, usually either a or b will be contacted first and thus become the Initial Target with the results you describe. However, where they are exactly the same distance from the chargers, I agree that they both become the Initial Target. (For example this might occur where a-b was originally a group of units but one or more have been destroyed by shooting). |
Hi Gavin
Thanks for publicising this change.
Devil’s advocate. Why could the charger not specify the further away enemy as his initial target? It can be reached without passing through the closest enemy, irrespective of whether that closest enemy stand or evade. Therefore this still complies with the requirements of 1- Target and charge range. If necessary some units could continue to hit the further away “initial target†even after others hit the closer enemy, section 4 and “8 continuing the chargeâ€,
Ps of course basically the same result can be achieved for an extra cp by charging in separate groups, or by a slight wheel so that both enemy would be contacted simultaneously. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 2:23 pm Sujet du message: |
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No reason at all Mike, the attacking player may specify any unit as the Initial Target, providing the chargers will hit that unit first. Example, 5x Cv face two enemy aa, bb
CvCvCvCvCv
.aa
……bb
Basically the group of Cv have three options - They can move forwards contacting aa first.
- The Cv could wheel through roughly 45 degrees to contact both enemy units simultaneously. Â
- The Cv could wheel through a larger angle, or drop the left Cv unit allowing the other four to slide right and advance. Either move will allow the Cv to contact bb first, even though this may result in conforming into contact with aa.
Once the chargers have contacted and conformed, other chargers may move forward per Step #8, and depending on the various movements, Secondary targets may be contacted causing them to evade etc.Â
The basic reason for the thread is to point out that P43 only refers to the Chargers and the Initial Target; P44 details the action / reaction of Secondary targets which are handled separately. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 3:26 pm Sujet du message: |
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What are the real differences between no targets evading and some targets evading?
If we follow the process we find 3 distinctions:
| Citation: | | If the initial targets do not evade |
vs.
| Citation: | | If not all targets evade |
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| Citation: | - All units that can do so must contact the enemy or move into support position.
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vs.
| Citation: | - All units that can do so must contact the enemy.
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---
goes directly to step 8
vs.
goes first to:
| Citation: | - Non-impetuous units should advance if possible at least 1 UD for foot or 2 UD for mounted. They may stop their charge or contiune to up to their maximum adjusted charge distance (see point 8).
- Impetuous units must continue their charge up to their full adjusted charge distance.
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*****
The first two distinctions appear inadvertent.
But the last one indicates that if all targets stand, there is no minimum charge distance, and Impetuous units will only continue if they could make contact.
Page 43 might be improved with a little reorganization.
Dernière édition par Za Otlichiye le Mer Juil 06, 2022 5:37 pm; édité 1 fois |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 5:24 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Za Otlichiye a écrit: | What are the real differences between all targets evading and some targets evading?
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If all the Initial Targets evade we use Step #6 which includes rolling for Variable Movement Rate.Â
If only some of the Initial Target units evade we use Step #7, which is the same as Step #6 except there is no VMR. |
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer
Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
Messages: 341
Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 5:38 pm Sujet du message: |
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| ARRG this stuff is never easy even when it's easy! mistake corrected. |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4709
Localisation: paris
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 6:35 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Zoltan a écrit: | | Ramses II a écrit: | | I agree the use of plurals is confusing, and P43 could have been better phrased - I suggest this is probably be due to translation errors. |
I prefer the so-called v3 approach where ALL enemy units within normal charge range (that can be contacted if they stand) are automatically initial targets. A VMD is therefore unnecessary unless ALL those targets evade, potentially bringing secondary targets into consideration (if the VMD rolls up).
Under the Ramses v4 approach I can see game play where a line of shooty cavalry halts 3.75UD from a line of impetuous cavalry and pushes a manky LH (or similar) a gnat's todger (3.7UD) closer to the impetuous cavalry. The LH becomes the initial target and forces a VMD. If the VMD is down the not-so-impetuous chargers stop short of the line of shooty cavalry and receive a whiff of grapeshot. Under v3 the line of shooty cavalry would probably have immediately taken the evade option when the impetuous cavalry charge was declared. |
It's why Impetuous cav must be screened with light troops, my dear!
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 8:17 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | No reason at all Mike, the attacking player may specify any unit as the Initial Target, providing the chargers will hit that unit first. Example, 5x Cv face two enemy aa, bb
CvCvCvCvCv
.aa
……bb
 |
Ok, so considering my devils advocate suggestion  .
Can the entire cavalry group declare the initial charge as bb and simply move directly forward, no wheel, no fancy stuff? bb can be reached without passing through aa, irrespective of whether aa stand or evade. Therefore this still complies with the requirements of 1- Target and charge range. Units that hit aa stop and fight there, the others continue to bb, using “8 continuing the chargeâ€, |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1534
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 9:24 pm Sujet du message: |
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[quote="Zoltan"] | Ramses II a écrit: |
Under the Ramses v4 approach I can see game play where a line of shooty cavalry halts 3.75UD from a line of impetuous cavalry and pushes a manky LH (or similar) a gnat's todger (3.7UD) closer to the impetuous cavalry. The LH becomes the initial target and forces a VMD. If the VMD is down the not-so-impetuous chargers stop short of the line of shooty cavalry and receive a whiff of grapeshot. Under v3 the line of shooty cavalry would probably have immediately taken the evade option when the impetuous cavalry charge was declared. |
If the LH was the only target that may be true, but that is not how it works.
1234
CCCL (where L is slightly higher) 1 can still target a C directly within 4 UD. Ergo not all targets evade. People are over complicating this. It is not I pick a single unit. If a group charges each unit of the group has a target (or a support or not). All those targets apply for that charge VMD.
There was an esoteric reason that we moved away from the retargeting language of v3 I forget. This V3 can get confused with the uncontrolled charge target of say mounted to Elephants. |
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1534
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 9:46 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: | As I said originally, I posted this because it has become clear that some people were unaware of this subtle but important change in the rules. And I must apologize; I used the term "single target" for simplicity. In practice this is the unit or units that will be contacted first simultaneously (ie without passing through any enemy units). We then use Steps #5, #6 or #7 to determine how the chargers move and conform etc.
Using your example, usually either a or b will be contacted first and thus become the Initial Target with the results you describe. However, where they are exactly the same distance from the chargers, I agree that they both become the Initial Target. (For example this might occur where a-b was originally a group of units but one or more have been destroyed by shooting). |
You are bringing in this simultaneously, which i get you are trying to explain things to people, but that is not correct.
123456 Charge as group. They all have the same direction. Essentially by definition they are going to have different targets. Now a 3 wide group could have a single target assuming no ZOCs around. But essentially if there is a target that cannot evade in front of 1, then no one will VMD. The group will then travel its normal move with no VMD. |
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Ramses II
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 10:48 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Mike Bennett a écrit: | |  Can the entire cavalry group declare the initial charge as bb and simply move directly forward, no wheel, no fancy stuff? bb can be reached without passing through aa, irrespective of whether aa stand or evade. Therefore this still complies with the requirements of 1- Target and charge range. Units that hit aa stop and fight there, the others continue to bb, using “8 continuing the chargeâ€, |
Basically, if the movement of five cavalry units will hit aa first, this becomes the Initial target irrespective of whether some units can ultimately contact bb.Â
Once the charge is declared and aa reacts, only at that point do we consider the interaction of some charging units with bb.Â
Note, this process does not prevent the chargers moving on into contact with Secondary targets, it just explains how players are now expected to play the charge process. |
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Mike Bennett
Centurion
Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
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| Posté le: Mer Juil 06, 2022 11:22 pm Sujet du message: |
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| Ramses II a écrit: |
Once the charge is declared and aa reacts, only at that point do we consider the interaction of some charging units with bb.Â
Note, this process does not prevent the chargers moving on into contact with Secondary targets, it just explains how players are now expected to play the charge process. |
Hi
I fully understand that this is your argument, it is clearly articulated. However, I cannot see anything written in the rules to require this approach, as it is possible to hit both targets without passing through any enemy unit and also without either of them evading. Furthermore, although it is Herve abd the DT’s decision IMHO the alternative is a better solution for the game as all targets in range can all be hit, and those out of range cannot be hit, without the risk from a random distance throw. Please see also Dan’s comments
Please would you quote a section of the rules that supports your argument.
Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Mer Juil 06, 2022 11:56 pm; édité 1 fois |
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