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Ambushing on a Road through a Village
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Sep 2021
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Localisation: Lovecraft country (and you Dan?)
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 1:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Is amplification in anyone's interest? Maybe an equalizer to boost the mid-range and roll off the highs and smooth out the bass.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 2:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
I will try to amplify Lionel's succinct answer:-

The text on terrain description is very clear pp71-72. Each type of terrain is presented and summarised in the table at the foot of p72; in all cases it is not permitted to place an ambush on a road.
When an ambush is discovered (p77),
Citation:
all units placed in the ambush are deployed on the table respecting the following rules:
▪ All units of the ambush must form a valid group and must be inside the terrain or out of sight of the enemy at the start of its movement.
(my emphasis)
So the units may not be placed on the road either. Is that clear enough ??

So Dickstick, according to the text units may not be placed on a road irrespective of where the road is situated.


So you will be happy with someone placing a road your side of a hill to stop you ambushing there when it's the hill your would have been hiding behind.
Is in and on interchangeable in your language?
Out of sight has no relevance either?

I shall have fun with Lionel next month.

What is on the road? 1mm or all the base?
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 3:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
lionelrus a écrit:
KevinD a écrit:
Suppose there is a road through a village (or through a woods, plantation, etc).

Can you place an ambush along the road in the village.

Ambushes are allowed in villages but not on roads. Which takes precedence?

Anyome do almost the same post, but hiding by an hill;, so i repeat again:
NO AMBUSH ON A ROAD!
5 words in a sentence, and someones can't understand! Rolling Eyes


Lionel,
Perhaps this dogmatic statement is not helping .

Do the french run roads round the back of hills to stop ambushes?




Richard


Its not dogmatic, it's the fuckin'rulebook!
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Dernière édition par lionelrus le Lun Juil 18, 2022 3:37 pm; édité 1 fois
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 3:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Ramses II a écrit:
I will try to amplify Lionel's succinct answer:-

The text on terrain description is very clear pp71-72. Each type of terrain is presented and summarised in the table at the foot of p72; in all cases it is not permitted to place an ambush on a road.
When an ambush is discovered (p77),
Citation:
all units placed in the ambush are deployed on the table respecting the following rules:
▪ All units of the ambush must form a valid group and must be inside the terrain or out of sight of the enemy at the start of its movement.
(my emphasis)
So the units may not be placed on the road either. Is that clear enough ??

So Dickstick, according to the text units may not be placed on a road irrespective of where the road is situated.


So you will be happy with someone placing a road your side of a hill to stop you ambushing there when it's the hill your would have been hiding behind.
Is in and on interchangeable in your language?
Out of sight has no relevance either?

I shall have fun with Lionel next month.

What is on the road? 1mm or all the base?


Facile!
la route n'a d'intérêt que si on bénéficie des bonus de mouvement qu'elle permet d'avoir. Pour celà, il faut que la base soit entièrement sur la route.
Donc, si j'arbitrais un tournoi et que quelqu'un place une embuscade qui dépasse sur une route, j'accorderais l'embuscade car les unités placées dessus ne peuvent bénéficier du bonus.

Vous semblez tous oublier que l'on ne peut formaliser tous les cas possibles et que, dans la mesure où certains veulent abuser de la forme de la règle pour s'accorder un avantage, c'est l'arbitre qui est chargé de régler ces cas d'enculeurs de mouches.
D'autre part, certains posent des cas qui ne se posent jamais, donc j'ai deux hypothèses: ou ces types ne jouent jamais, ou ils s'emmerdent pendant les vacances et postent pour s'occuper.
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 4:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This discussion is probably reached the point of little utility but what the heck. First of all I am indebted to Zoltan for pointing out where the restriction is. I had scoured the text under ambush and definition of roads and did not notice it on the terrain chart.

The disagreement seems to be based on the definition of a road. A road is clearly terrain, yet when it is placed on other terrain sometimes (combat) the governing rules are based on the other terrain and sometimes (movement) on the road itself.

On the chart on page 72 is says that a road does not allow an ambush. Fair enough, but if it did not there are some players, surely none of the august body here, who would point out that technically one could then ambush on a road in the open. Seriously I think there are people who would argue that.

Lionel's latest response when translated from the French by google says that he feels an ambushing unit can overlap a road but cannot be positioned in ambush so as to take advantage of road movement. That is a reasonable compromise but it is not strictly in compliance with the chart either.

Personally I always figured that ambushing on a road was fine as long as the other terrain allowed for it. I'm happy to be corrected though if the intent is that a road is supposed to stop ambushes.

Like so many of our discussions lately this is a game issue. What provides the best balance. You can rationalize that a road at 1UD wide is way out of ground scale or whatever you like. This also applies to visibility.

Finally there is in the french translation a phrase which renders as " it is the referee who is responsible for settling these case of fly-fuckers." Fly-fucker is my new favorite word of the day and I hope to use it a lot at Historicon this coming week.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 4:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
La patience est une vertue. En ce qui concerne les règles avocats sont une exigence.
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KevinD
Centurion


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2021
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Localisation: Texas
MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 5:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I just want to know if I can put an ambush on a road through a village or not.

One line on p72 says ambushes are “Not possible†on roads but another says “All except elephants†can ambush in villages. Which is it? There are decent historical/common sense arguments on both sides, as well as (to me at least) weird Heisenberg-like compromises that you can be on the road while not being on it.

I would argue the text is ambiguous enough that it’s worth asking the author to clarify this.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 5:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:


I would argue the text is ambiguous enough that it’s worth asking the author to clarify this.


Even the Kreator takes vacations. We will worry about this in the fall.

The idea is I presume not allow exploitive deployments in woods or villages where the column would be in the open and thus denying the notion of ambush.

So for now, take it as a strict ban.
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Za Otlichiye
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 18, 2022 5:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD asked this question 9 months ago and fdunadan, who seems to be accorded some deference, said you could and no one thought to argue the point.

Now the same question has come up on the French questions forum and lionelrus has been adamant that you can never do so. To the point that he has argued that you cannot place an ambush on a road behind a hill - I'm not entirely sure he realizes he said that.

I do see that there may be a concern that allowing an elephant to reveal itself and barge 4 UD out of a woods is unfair and so must be prohibited. However: this has not been asserted; it really needs a sentence or two of explanation in the rules to make it clear. Otherwise, no one seems surprised that fdunadan would suggest the chart on page 72 is mistaken about this, since it is common sense that the small scale of a road would not impede an ambush any more than it would affect combat or shooting.
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